NHL Developer Insights: NHL 2K10 Improved AI

[Flyermania]

Eddie and Scott, do you guys play online at all?

[Eddie1967]

Quote: Originally Posted by Flyermania

Eddie and Scott, do you guys play online at all?

Oh Yeah!

[Scottdau]

I am going to. I am just really busy with this masters and teaching credential, but next month it will slow for me.

[slickdtc]

Quote: Originally Posted by TIm

I agree with this... I want better AI and gameplay before anything else...If they could get that game with higher levels or a good sliderset, I am o.k with a bland hockey game... well not bland but you know what I mean... IMO 2k5 football was going for a all around game..Game was FAR from perfect but I had a good feeling about that game and they had a good base to work out of.. Then they could've tackled the AI and gameplay or was on their way to anyways.. With Hockey or anygame though, I think gameplay and AI should be first on anyones list.

Quote: Originally Posted by RealmK

Indeed, I hope that ends up being the case. Like I said, I can deal with another year of bad commentary if the gameplay is finally back on track. Its similar to where I think NHL10 is at, they spent alot of time getting the rest of the gameplay there, board play, goalies, passing etc. So next year they can focus on blowing out the presentation. It very well could be that 2k was able to do that this year. If nothing else, their arena's alone blow EA's out of the water.

Whenever I think of gameplay first, then presentation second, I think of NHL 2k3. Though I don't own the game anymore, my memory says that the presentation was actually serviceable. They had some ESPN overlays, a pregame introduction (they even said the player names, if I recall correctly), and I can remember the goal scoring cut scene (I think they were real time, actually). 2k3 is positively the benchmark for me for NHL games. I really think 2k10 is going to get as close to 2k3 as we've seen so far for a number of reasons. For one, it's VC making the game. So while it's not Treyarch, VC was teamed with Treyarch in producing that game (while Kush came from out of nowhere for the 2k4-2k8 games) and I think they've learned something from that. And again, the 2k series is the ugly stepchild and can't rest on its laurels like they were in 2k3 making their debut on all the systems and really trying to establish themselves. When the series had that success, I think they shifted to being complacent and just making the game look good instead of really refining the great core gameplay mechanics they had.

I really do think we're in for something good this year. I think the core gameplay for 2k10 is going to be some of the best playing hockey we've had in this series. But it's still going to be 2k hockey, so if you just don't like that feel, you're not going to like this release anymore then the previous ones. That's just the vibe I'm getting from all this prerelease stuff. As always, it'll come down to sitting down and playing the game. I'd love to see 2khockey.net get a hands-on opportunity with the game because we know WAZ & Co know what that 2k2/2k3 era felt like and I'd really trust their opinion if they said it's back to those roots.

We'll see in mid-September. I haven't been this amped for a release date, regardless of sport, in a longggg time.

[Money99]

Great post slick. Especially the comments on the feel of 2K hockey compared to EA.

EA has a great advantage in that, for the most part, all of their hockey games have 'felt' the same since 92. The graphics, AI, etc have all been improved but the game still looks the same to some degree from years back.
That's not a bash on EA by any means, but they've been able to build a comfort level with their consumers because of it.

It's for that exact reason why I took me quite a while to enjoy 2K2. It moved, looked and played so different than any other hockey game I've ever seen.
I hated it at first to be honest. But as I dug deeper, I started to appreciate the nuances of the game.
And then when 2K3 came out I was in heaven. Absolute hockey heaven.

I really hope that 2K can return to that level of hockey. Where the AI is slick and makes the user pay for mistakes. Where we won't feel cheated with artificial CPU boosts or cheats.
And I hope that if 2K10 really is a great game, that more of the hockey community gives it a chance.
I raved about 2K3 to all my friends and when they finally got down to playing it, they loved it. In fact, it was the only thing we played when the guys came over.

[RealmK]

Fantastic post slick, while I do agree there is a different "feel" so to speak between the two, I also think alot of that has always had to do with levels of polish on the whole. The code base within 2k3 was pretty much completely fundamentally sound on pretty much every facet when it came to the gameplay itself with the exception of goaltenders being too effective.

From the CPU AI playing positionally sound on defense, cutting off passing lanes, actively clogging the neutral zone and standing up at the blue line, to the CPU offensive AI being able to effectively dump and chase and forecheck and cycle. The game felt like real hockey, it played like real hockey and while the presentation wasn't the greatest ever, it was serviceable with ESPN overlays, compitant play by play that had a hockey broadcast vibe and for anyone who truly loves the sport, it was a dream come true to be able to actually play real hockey on a console.

Once the developer switch was made not only with Sega selling Visual Concepts and in turn their sports line since they were getting out of the hardware side of the business to Take Two, but Kush being brought in to take over for the on loan from Activision, Treyarch things slowly started to change. While the graphics and presentation were improved for 2k4 and 2k5 (2k5 especially) the team started to put less of a focus on making sure the AI stayed on top of its game each iteration and more on a focus on back of the box type of bullet points, like the sky box, pond hockey, crease controls and the like and pretty much rested on their laurels until EA stood up and took notice.

It didn't help with the first few next gen versions pretty much being just last gen ports with a gimick or two added for good measure. (cinemotion, play off beards, zamboni racing etc) They had really gotten away from what made the early versions of NHL2k the great games that they were, and that was making a great simulation game of the actual sport.

I know that the guys they've picked up to work for them since remember those versions, Cups, Shadow, Tris and the like, and I really hope they've gone back to basics with the gameplay to bring it back to the calibre that NHL2k3-2k5 was.

Though I have to be honest in that the way they have marketed the game so far with the exception of these dev insights wasn't really a smart way to go about winning back guys that have jumped ship. Waiting so long to start pumping out info not only casts seeds of doubt (considering how bad 2k9 was) but with nothing to go on for so long it gave EA total attention from E3 til the last week or so. Also like I've said, I think it would go a very long way if someone from the dev team, Cups or Shadow or what not could get us some media of the game on sim sliders with a higher difficulty level and really demonstrate how the game plays to the hardcore sim player. I'd love to pick it up day one along with NHL10, but I need to see first hand that its actually capable of playing a sim game of hockey with adaquate AI, and that the longstanding issues like franchise freezes and the like have indeed been taken care of.

[Scottdau]

Great post Realm.

[daflyboys]

Quote: Originally Posted by slickdtc

Whenever I think of gameplay first, then presentation second, I think of NHL 2k3. Though I don't own the game anymore, my memory says that the presentation was actually serviceable. They had some ESPN overlays, a pregame introduction (they even said the player names, if I recall correctly), and I can remember the goal scoring cut scene (I think they were real time, actually). 2k3 is positively the benchmark for me for NHL games.

It has held up decently for a last gen game. I recently played and the AI is still remarkable. Here's a compiliation I made a while ago from replays I happened to save (I think there's a 2K4 replay or two that snuck in). I also have a seperate couple of vids that didn't make this montage that I can post as well if ne1 is interested: