Weak Madden Sales Signaling Trouble for Game Industry

[mrprice33]

Quote: Originally Posted by xx19kilosoldier

Please man. Patching cycles are built into development schedules now. SO yes, he has a point. Developers most def do take advantage of the ability to patch when developing games and most def use the paying community to final test their product while already reaping financial rewards from the product. Spare us all the deep thinker bit as well, for someone who is trying to be such an intellectually honest poster you sure "poo poo" all over others with differing opinions from your own. Sent from my laptop, while sitting on my couch drinking a beer, and using my fingers.

It seemed to me his point was that games were better then because they didn't have patches or sliders, while ignoring the fact that users and developers had no recourse to fix any problems that arised (of which there were many). If that was his point it's easily countered, and if not then I wonder why it would be brought up in the first place.

I'm not disputing that patches are a given with just about every game, what I'm disputing is that somehow this is a bad thing. Look at backbreaker for why it's such a great thing for gamers.

And a big hardee har har at attacking a poster for using properly structured sentences with well-reasoned arguments. That's rich.



Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Tapatalk.

[rooney8]

Quote: Originally Posted by mrprice

Again, if you don't think this game has made significant leaps forward in realism since the 08/09 incarnations of the game, you're living in a fantasy land and are pretty much not worth debating with.

But 08/09 were so bad that I just can't give credit for improving on them. I was on Ian's and Phil's side at one time because they said everything I wanted to hear but Madden11 just reminds me of 08/09. They didn't add much this year yet still what they did add is poorly implemented. Gameflow/gameplanning needs alot of work, locomotion is good but not what it should be, commentary is the awful and well they did nail run blocking. The code for commentary is terrible so they are going to have to spend alot of time trying to fix and improve that where as if they just got it right this year they could move on to other areas of need. They do this despite being crippled themselves with all the bad code left by Ortiz era.

[mrprice33]

Quote: Originally Posted by rooney8

But 08/09 were so bad that I just can't give credit for improving on them. I was on Ian's and Phil's side at one time because they said everything I wanted to hear but Madden11 just reminds me of 08/09. They didn't add much this year yet still what they did add is poorly implemented. Gameflow/gameplanning needs alot of work, locomotion is good but not what it should be, commentary is the awful and well they did nail run blocking. The code for commentary is terrible so they are going to have to spend alot of time trying to fix and improve that where as if they just got it right this year they could move on to other areas of need. They do this despite being crippled themselves with all the bad code left by Ortiz era.

Considering Ian and Phil weren't the primary decision makers for the 08 and 09 games, I'll give them a pass for those, especially considering the rather dramatic shift that the games have taken towards a more realistic, less "gamey" approach. That is not to say that the game is all the way there, because it isn't. However, gameplay wise comparing this game to 08 and 09 is absurd. Yes, the things around the gameplay remain stuck in a last-gen rut (and I've conceded this many times), but on the field the game is better than ever.

[REDRZA]

Quote: Originally Posted by mrprice33

Let's just go down the list, shall we? Suction blocking and 2 man animations are a product of using motion captured animations in the game. Many other games deemed superior (nba 2k, for one) also have these problems. Until these games go full physics, which only really became plausible a couple of years ago, these issues will remain. That being said, suction blocking is far more rare in 10/11 than in any other version of the game. Dbs mirroring routes didn't happen until 09 at the earliest. It was not a problem in the last gen versions of the game. Nano blitzes are a problem that have plagued pretty much every football game ever made. Offensive line ai is probably one of the most difficult things to program in all of gaming, especially when you give the user the ability to hot route defenders and move guys around to trick the ai. And using sliders takes care of the issues defensively (the same way they fixed 2k5s awful pass coverage). Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Tapatalk.

Suction blocking wasn't an issue with 2K football, or NFL Gameday. Games created on lesser hardware. You are preaching to the choir about physics, because Madden has been in dire need of more realistic player interaction. 2 player scripted animations that "play out" are old. You can claim there are "far less" occurances, yet they still remain, same as they did during the PS2 era.

Mirroring routes absolutely existed in PS2 era Madden's, maybey you didn't pay enough attention. I played a guy at a tournament who was considered a very good player. He was up 7-3 at halftime. I ran mostly man cover 2 with bump coverage. In the second half, he absolutley destroyed me while i was running the same defense. I couldn't figure out why his WR was WIDE open in man coverage. He didn't motion or anything. After the game i asked him what he was doing. He was running a sluugo, or an out and up, and even after the WR released from the bump, the DB still ran the slant in, or the out part of the route while the WR was already at LEAST 5 yds up the field.

His exact words were "The DB mirrors the route so the WR gets serious seperation on the double move after the bump".

Nano blitzes were in 2K football, but to a much lesser extent. Madden football back on the PS2 era was where that phrase was coined. Nano blitzing and that term were created on Madden during last gen.

As far as slider and 2K, i was always more of a Madden guy but did play some 2K. I play competitvely ONLY either, only head to head either offline or online. 2K5 played pretty solid without slider adjustments. In Madden they don't apply to me or the hundreds of thousands of players who play online. beating up on the CPU and its weak AI are not my idea of fun.

I been playing Madden faithfully every single last year from 1989. I know this game inside out. This game hasn't changed other than tuning and tweaks, features added/removed, and better graphics. Underneath the fluff, its been the same game year in and year out for quite a while now.

[rangerrick012]

@ price33

Look not everyone thinks Madden is great and NBA 2K sucks, just because you see it that way and others don't doesn't mean you are the only one right and everyone else is wrong. Madden has its flaws as does 2K, but the flaws in Madden are greater to some, than those in 2K. People complain about 2K just as they do w/ Madden, maybe you don't see it as much, but it happens. Just like you say sliders help Madden, they help NBA 2K as well. In any case, I don't think it's right how you continue to take cheap shots at 2K in order to pump up Madden when others don't see it the way you do.

What do you mean by people letting it get away anyways? From what I've seen reviewers still give Madden high scores every year, it still sells more than any other sports game. Of course the community is going to be harsher, but the harshness probably comes from 2 factors that cannot be ignored - 1. Ea's purchase of the license definitely opened up Madden to harsher criticism and backlash. 2K avoids this to a degree b/c people don't like it, they can play Live. Madden is the only yearly NFL game in town. If you think that's not a factor you're naive IMO. 2. Disconnect between the community and the devs. W/ 2k there at least seems to be a concerted effort to listen to the community's needs and try to implement new features. Madden throws in gameplan, gameflow, and strat pad really without the community asking for or demanding these features. This leaves fans jaded and makes people wonder what the direction of the game really is.

[Rules]

It is very simple but EA is not getting the message. You cannot keep rehashing the same game over and over removing great features and replacing them with gimmicks!

Some features that has not been done and would require WORK that they would not be willing to do:

1) Individual sounds, music, commentary for each stadium.
2) Changing weather! Rain to snow, off, on, light to heavy.
3) Better halftime shows that can be turned off for the arcade players.
4) The ability to play defense again which has basically been removed for more offense.
5) New kicking system that is not 100% like it has been for years.

Notice many of these ideas has to do with presentation and atmosphere. EA did very little this year with Madden and you are seeing it reflect in their sales. Why do you think Ian has avoided this forum, cause even he knew it was not going to be pretty.

[REDRZA]

Quote: Originally Posted by mrprice33

Really? Is that why I still remember double flags from madden 97 or hb toss from the first quarterback club or one timers from the nhl series or the behind the back crossover from 2k2 or changing your stance to open and holding up+ left to hit homeruns in triple play gold for Genesis or bo Jackson in tecmo bowl or numerous other broken situations in sports games dating back to basically the atari 2600? Or the game glitches that forced people to mail copies of games back to the publishers in order to get new and corrected software? Lionizing past generations for their quality and balance of games is laughable. Sent from my HTC EVO 4G using Tapatalk.

You are going off on other tangents my friend. Stay focused. I never said ANY game was "perfect", and i was specifically talking about Madden. Let's stop bringing in other games into the debate, it is a Madden forum.

I never lionized Madden on PS2 either, because what im saying is we are basically playing Madden PS2 right now, with better graphics, more animations, and some tuning and tweaking.

The last time Madden had an engine(s) change was when they went from PS1 to PS2. There was a stark difference in the game, it was totally different from PS1.

It's not so much that this current game is garbage, its just OUTDATED and STALE. They have taken this engine(s) as far as it can go. We have been stuck in a vicious cycle of taking some steps forward, and some back, never really innovating or progressing. 2K didn't have todays more realistic physics engines, but the way those players interacted with each other, especially tackling, was FAR better than what we have now on much better hardware, getting to the latter stages of this generation of consoles already.

I'm tired of beating a dead horse, i realize Tiburon and EA simply will not reboot this franchise which is exactly what it needs. Just like Triple play became MVP, KO Kings became Fight Night, and NHL got ALOT better with a reboot. All i ask for now is a game where broken tackles aren't bordering arcadish, and pass coverage that plays like its supposed to. Can we have a BALANCED game without making us all single player franchise freaks that want to draft fake players and price hot dogs?

[mrprice33]

Quote: Originally Posted by REDRZA

Suction blocking wasn't an issue with 2K football, or NFL Gameday. Games created on lesser hardware. You are preaching to the choir about physics, because Madden has been in dire need of more realistic player interaction. 2 player scripted animations that "play out" are old. You can claim there are "far less" occurances, yet they still remain, same as they did during the PS2 era. Mirroring routes absolutely existed in PS2 era Madden's, maybey you didn't pay enough attention. I played a guy at a tournament who was considered a very good player. He was up 7-3 at halftime. I ran mostly man cover 2 with bump coverage. In the second half, he absolutley destroyed me while i was running the same defense. I couldn't figure out why his WR was WIDE open in man coverage. He didn't motion or anything. After the game i asked him what he was doing. He was running a sluugo, or an out and up, and even after the WR released from the bump, the DB still ran the slant in, or the out part of the route while the WR was already at LEAST 5 yds up the field. His exact words were "The DB mirrors the route so the WR gets serious seperation on the double move after the bump". Nano blitzes were in 2K football, but to a much lesser extent. Madden football back on the PS2 era was where that phrase was coined. Nano blitzing and that term were created on Madden during last gen. As far as slider and 2K, i was always more of a Madden guy but did play some 2K. I play competitvely ONLY either, only head to head either offline or online. 2K5 played pretty solid without slider adjustments. In Madden they don't apply to me or the hundreds of thousands of players who play online. beating up on the CPU and its weak AI are not my idea of fun. I been playing Madden faithfully every single last year from 1989. I know this game inside out. This game hasn't changed other than tuning and tweaks, features added/removed, and better graphics. Underneath the fluff, its been the same game year in and year out for quite a while now.

I still play Madden 08 on the PC, which is based on the last gen version of the hardware, and the dbs do not run routes before the receivers like they do in the current incarnations of the game. What is happening now is primarily because the wr route running animations were changed to make their feet chop more at the point of the cut, while the dbs footwork and locomotion have remained basically the same. This causes the db to move faster than the wr, and therefore run the route ahead of the wr. That did not happen in last gen Madden/NCAA (especially not in the 2001 Madden/2002 NCAA, which were notorious for bad db AI play). It's certainly possible that we misunderstand each other on this point, but I'm specifically talking about that issue. If that's not what you are talking about, then I apologize.

As to the rest of your points, there are certainly some things that are going to carry over. The same coders basically did the work on the last gen and next gen versions of the game, and that means that they mostly used the same techniques to achieve certain ends. However, the game was overhauled pretty much in its entirety for the next gen systems. That's why those games played faster and that's why the runners had less weight and momentum, and were able to pretty much turn on a dime.

I feel for online guys, I really do. I used to play online a lot up until the last year or 2 (and went to a ton of tournaments), but stopped as the game just stopped being fun. Now that I primarily play against the CPU with slider adjustments, it's fun again.

I don't know what to say to you. There was some talk of maybe in the future having the community vote on the best slider edits, and these would then be built into some of the lobbies in the game, and really that's probably the best you can hope for.