Robert Flores Goes One-On-One With EA Sports Madden NFL 11 Game Designers (ESPN)

[roadman]

I love going back to this chart posted by Valderaz in March of this year.

There are nicely done graphs from 2005 to 2010.

http://www.operationsports.com/Valda...-through-2010/

07 had a huge jump, and then 08 and 09 went back to 06's numbers. The decline from 09 to 10 you can debate the quality of the game(although more sim on the field than 06-09) and the economy tanking.

You can't leave out the economy in the equation since unemployment has doubled in the last few years.

[udungoofed]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

I don't know if you saw Phil's two's posts just before yours. He did say Franchise Mode is a priority for them. I don't know anymore what he would have to say at this time.

There's nothing he can say and that's fine, I'm not after a response from him I'm just pointing out what I don't understand.

I mean, how did FIFA overtake PES as the premier football video game? It made the game the best football game out there. It didn't go "screw what soccer fans want for this year, lets find ways to get non-soccer gamers to buy our product"

EA's admittedly not solely focused on the American football fan and therin lies the problem IMO. I believe that no matter how much a "casual" fan likes Madden 11, they won't be a yearly buyer because they are "casual" fan. Madden 11 will keep them happy beyond a year because they aren't someone who needs the latest version.

It's just not about a singular feature or mode, it's the fact that they divide their already thin resources and time into pleasing the casual and the hardcore, while the other EA sports titles just aim to please the fans of the sport without segregating them into groups and giving each of them only part of their attention.

Then again, I'm no expert on the topics and it's just how I would percieve things to happen. Time will tell I suppose.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by udungoofed

There's nothing he can say and that's fine, I'm not after a response from him I'm just pointing out what I don't understand. I mean, how did FIFA overtake PES as the premier football video game? It made the game the best football game out there. It didn't go "screw what soccer fans want for this year, lets find ways to get non-soccer gamers to buy our product" EA's admittedly not solely focused on the American football fan and therin lies the problem IMO. I believe that no matter how much a "casual" fan likes Madden 11, they won't be a yearly buyer because they are "casual" fan. Madden 11 will keep them happy beyond a year because they aren't someone who needs the latest version. It's just not about a singular feature or mode, it's the fact that they divide their already thin resources and time into pleasing the casual and the hardcore, while the other EA sports titles just aim to please the fans of the sport without segregating them into groups and giving each of them only part of their attention. Then again, I'm no expert on the topics and it's just how I would percieve things to happen. Time will tell I suppose.

You say a lot of good things in your post that I don't disagree with.

I think FIFA became better as more people latched onto soccer. My son plays soccer(High School) and he's never heard of PES. He's played FIFA 08 to the present. I think FIFA does a better job of marketing. I'm not a soccer fan, but admittedly, I watched the World Cup with our son.

[adembroski]

Quote: Originally Posted by udungoofed

I have to admit I'm quite confused with how the Madden team and the NHL team seem to contradict one another. It just doesn't all add up to me. On one hand, we have Phil stating how "very easy" these features would be to implement, but "spreadsheet management" is boring and needs to be done in other methods. On the other hand, we have yesterday's NHL blog on this very same subject, Free Agency and what they've done with NHL 11. Direct quote from that blog "This year, for NHL 11, we worked hard to devote the time and resources to a feature that we know many of you have been clamoring for, for a couple of years now" So Madden says it's easy to do, yet boring and NHL says it was hard to do and everyone is excited about it. Lets also not forget how much more COMPLEX the NHL Collective Bargaining Agreement is, yet NHL decided to give it's fans this "spreadsheet manangement stuff" that Madden claims again, is so boring.

But it hasn't happened yet. You're making comparisons to nothing. NHL has grown based on its gameplay strength to this point. This is the first major "hardcore" addition to franchise mode since it began its rebuilding process. You're going to make sales comparisons below, but you're comparing with versions of NHL that have not added UFAs and things like it. NHL has not made majors strides in the franchise mode department since '07.

It has made huge strides in the gameplay department. Massive strides. It has set a new bar in creating sim-yet-fun gameplay. This is what will also carry NHL 11 sales... not UFAs. You are inventing causation that doesn't exist.

What do you think the percentages are of hardcore vs. casual Madden vs. NHL players? I think that plays into the equation. I'd bet on average an NHL 11 player is a more hardcore hockey fan than the average Madden player is toward football.

Quote:

Now if you look at the VGChartz data, it's not definitive but it's certainly useable information, Madden has had declining opening week sales since 07 (I didn't look back further). Madden 07 - 2.19M Madden 08 - 1.64M Madden 09 - 1.65M Madden 10 - 1.26M Madden 11 - 1.21M Overall Sales (all platforms) Madden 07 - 9.09M Madden 08 - 7.70M Madden 09 - 8.42M Madden 10 - 6.81M Madden 11 - ???? ChrisS posted a bit on how the industry and economy is slowing down for games in general and Madden is a reflection of that. However how has NHL fared with sales during the same time period? NHL 07 - 870K NHL 08 - 420K NHL 09 - 900K NHL 10 - 1.05M

NHL 07 is the equivalent of Madden 10 in terms of its rejuvenation cycle. Madden 07-09 were under a different regime who, in my opinion, held our community in contempt. Just prior to the release of Madden 09, this new team took over. They do not hold us in contempt because they are much closer to us in terms of their outlook on Madden.

Beginning with the '07 game the NHL team sought to reinvent itself in a new, more realistic direction. It took 3 years to realize its vision. Madden began this journey with the '10 game.

I'm not saying everyone at Tiburon now is a hardcore sim player, but I am saying they want to earn the respect of the hardcore sim player above all else. They believe that when OS is singing the praises of the "New Madden", they will have succeeded. Like in NHL, when they began the work of reinventing their game, there are missteps and set backs.

Quote:

Just for kicks'n'giggles, how about FIFA and NBA 2K, 2 more highly regarded sports titles like NHL. FIFA 07 - 6.25M FIFA 08 - 9.12M FIFA 09 - 8.85M FIFA 10 - 9.35M

Same thing with FIFA, though they took an extra year. FIFA 07 suffered from being badly timed. FIFA has a much larger potential audience than Madden, being that it is the Madden of Europe and South America.

Quote:

NBA 2k7 - 1.54M NBA 2k8 - 1.92M NBA 2k9 - 2.06M NBA 2k10 - 2.47M

Now we're talking about a game that was already where it belonged and didn't need to rebuild from scratch. NBA 2k7 was probably the best professional sports game at the 360 launch (and the best overall was it's college counterpart).

Quote:

Lets not forget about the sales records COD MW2 recently broke right when the economy news was everywhere. Video game sales are down overall, but fans are certainly not avoiding the "better titles".

True, this is the case in nearly all industries. I don't think anybody is arguing that Madden is at COD, FIFA, NBA 2k, or NHL's level of quality yet, even Phil. They're taking the same road as FIFA and NHL took at the start of this generation, however... and history shows us, it's a 3-4 year journey.

Quote:

So is it the economy, or are these development teams listening to the fans of the sports of the games being produced? The Madden guys have said many times, even in the ESPN peice in the OP, that they are trying to find ways to get more casual fans into the game. You don't see this from any other EA sports title that I've seen. NHL makes a hockey game for hockey fans, and they see it in the sales numbers.

I think the trouble is that NHL didn't really have an audience to start with. I imagine there was little to no directives from on high, and the team had virtually unlimited freedom to do as they pleased. FIFA took an extra year, but having an audience in place likely meant they were giving some heavy direction. I'm a firm believer that management should hire people who make games and let them make games.

Quote:

Why is NHL winning every single Sports Game of the Year award if when it comes to Madden it's the economy and not the game that's dictating sales?

Back to my hardcore vs. casual statement. The hardcore user is going to find a way to buy in a tough economy because the game means more to him. If a game's user base is made up of more hardcore users, then those users are going to carry you through a recession.

Quote:

Somehow, this all doesn't add up to me. I realize it's not just FA that's the factor here, it's just an example. You have one EA sports title saying something is boring, and it's sales are dropping and you have another EA sports title that's the reigning sports game of the year with increased sales......by doing what's "boring".

No, it hasn't. Once again, NHL hasn't been doing what's "boring", it's been doing what's rather exciting. Right stick shot control, great online features, board play, general gameplay improvements. Only now, since they've reached a level of greatness gameplay-wise, are they turning to franchise mode with any real focus.

At any rate, Phil just said in this very thread that we're going to see a much deeper franchise mode in M12. In other words, he's not trying to exclude the 'boring stuff', but find a way to make it not boring. How can you possibly have a problem with that? NFL Head Coach's manor of handling things like RFAs, the draft, free agency, is vastly superior in terms of entertainment value than any franchise mode in existence... why would you not want them to take inspiration from it?

[Phil_Frazier]

Quote: Originally Posted by udungoofed

So Madden says it's easy to do, yet boring and NHL says it was hard to do and everyone is excited about it. Lets also not forget how much more COMPLEX the NHL Collective Bargaining Agreement is, yet NHL decided to give it's fans this "spreadsheet manangement stuff" that Madden claims again, is so boring.

Valid question here so I'll take a stab at providing my interpretation of the interviews/blog.

I actually think the Madden team and the NHL team are saying the same thing, but in different ways. From the Madden side, I would very easily change my approach to the answer to match that of the NHL blog and it would have the same meaning. I'm not saying that these features are boring and that we don't want to add them. I'm saying it would be easy to simply add them into the game in a way that's boring for 90% of our audience. The challenge lies with our designers to develop a system that takes that same feature and does it in a way that is more compelling to a larger portion of our audience. NHL admitting that they worked hard, and devoted resourses to this problem indicates to me that they didn't take the easy way out as well.

Just one man's interpretation...

Phil

[TDKing]

Phil, One question... Do you think more people would have used the Online Franchise mode if it was done correctly ? I'm thinking yes! I know this is old news now so no need for you to really answer. Thanks

[PantherBeast_OS]

Phil will ya'll give equal attention to offline franchise mode as ya'll are doing with online franchise mode this coming year. I play offline franchise mode more then I do online franchise.

[RGiles36]

Sidenote: I thought I checked VGchartz last week and the numbers for NBA 2K had dropped? Perhaps I didn't look at the big picture (overall sales).

Quote: Originally Posted by Legend Killer

Phil will ya'll give equal attention to offline franchise mode as ya'll are doing with online franchise mode this coming year. I play offline franchise mode more then I do online franchise.

I'd think they go hand & hand, would they not?