Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

[Big FN Deal]

Here is my question. Considering how FUBAR we have been told the coding in next-gen Madden is and how it is supposed to add so much more difficulty to implementing things into the game, how feasible is it for EA/Tiburon to address these things like run/pass commit before the next consoles?

That "other game" was likely built on core football fundamentals from the start so it was likely easier to build on that. I don't think anybody would argue that about next-gen Madden so maybe band-aids here and there are the best the devs can do right now. I think even Infinity was likely mainly implemented this generation in hopes of ironing it out for the next consoles.

Also where is the core problem in regards to representing run/pass commit, the AI, the playart, the animations, all three or something else entirely? I am hoping there can be something straightforward that we all can get behind that devs and programmers can clearly envision a way to get into Madden on these current consoles.

[PSUEagle]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Here is my question. Considering how FUBAR we have been told the coding in next-gen Madden is and how it is supposed to add so much more difficulty to implementing things into the game, how feasible is it for EA/Tiburon to address these things like run/pass commit before the next consoles? That "other game" was likely built on core football fundamentals from the start so it was likely easier to build on that. I don't think anybody would argue that about next-gen Madden so maybe band-aids here and there are the best the devs can do right now. I think even Infinity was likely mainly implemented this generation in hopes of ironing it out for the next consoles. Also where is the core problem in regards to representing run/pass commit, the AI, the playart, the animations, all three or something else entirely? I am hoping there can be something straightforward that we all can get behind that devs and programmers can clearly envision a way to get into Madden on these current consoles.

Full disclosure: I know next to nothing about programming.

With that said, I think it's very possible if they have the right guys in place and a commitment to building it correctly from the ground up. They should start working on the new game as soon as they receive internal copies of the PS4/XBOX 720.

They may need to release a place-holder type game for a couple of years on the level of Madden 06 while they build, but again, I think it's very possible. The problem is you have a combination of game play guys who understand some of the game but not nearly enough (and IMO don't have the passion/desire/drive to truly learn what they don't know) to go along with a marketing apparatus that believes that making the game anymore "complex" will alienate the all mighty "casual" crowd. The game play guys can't/won't fix the issue, while the marketing guys essentially support the status quo due to no competition.

Bad combination.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Here is my question. Considering how FUBAR we have been told the coding in next-gen Madden is and how it is supposed to add so much more difficulty to implementing things into the game, how feasible is it for EA/Tiburon to address these things like run/pass commit before the next consoles? That "other game" was likely built on core football fundamentals from the start so it was likely easier to build on that. I don't think anybody would argue that about next-gen Madden so maybe band-aids here and there are the best the devs can do right now. I think even Infinity was likely mainly implemented this generation in hopes of ironing it out for the next consoles. Also where is the core problem in regards to representing run/pass commit, the AI, the playart, the animations, all three or something else entirely? I am hoping there can be something straightforward that we all can get behind that devs and programmers can clearly envision a way to get into Madden on these current consoles.

Big, this last part here is what I'm trying to remember. When did run/pass commit show up in the Madden series? Was it 05? 06? Also when did it show up in NCAA? I know why it showed up in NCAA. In that game you couldn't just call a good play and stop the run. You were kinda forced to use run commit to stop it. Even then people would still have 200 + rushing yard games in online head to head games. Defense too passive.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

Big, this last part here is what I'm trying to remember. When did run/pass commit show up in the Madden series? Was it 05? 06? Also when did it show up in NCAA? I know why it showed up in NCAA. In that game you couldn't just call a good play and stop the run. You were kinda forced to use run commit to stop it. Even then people would still have 200 + rushing yard games in online head to head games. Defense too passive.

From what I can tell be searching the internets, it appears it was first in Madden 2005 with the defensive pre-play controls. On a side not, I wish I hadn't searched because a I honestly couldn't believe some of the stuff I read about old Maddens that they are repeating even this year. lol

Anyway, I think it was added to deter gamers from blatantly running the same plays over again. I guess adaptive AI has been a consistent issue with Madden even last gen. The crazy thing is, I don't think it's an issue in the sense that they can't get it to work properly to deter a lack of play calling diversity but rather a balancing issue for how "fun" the game is.

In an interview before M10 came out, Ian talks about intentionally weakening adaptive AI in HUM v HUM games I guess because they felt like that was limiting User control, letting the AI adjust for you. So run/pass commit is likely some compromise to put some form of adaptive AI in control of the User. Same thing with the smart feature from Madden 09's weapons, it would show the User the their opponents play if repeated too many times but the AI players didn't do anything to adjust, without User input.

I really wish you hadn't inadvertently started me down this rabbit hole. lol

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

On a side not, I wish I hadn't searched because a I honestly couldn't believe some of the stuff I read about old Maddens that they are repeating even this year. lol

Now you know where the frustration comes from each and every year (and why I shout so much when we have our conversations, lol).

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

From what I can tell be searching the internets, it appears it was first in Madden 2005 with the defensive pre-play controls. On a side not, I wish I hadn't searched because a I honestly couldn't believe some of the stuff I read about old Maddens that they are repeating even this year. lol Anyway, I think it was added to deter gamers from blatantly running the same plays over again. I guess adaptive AI has been a consistent issue with Madden even last gen. The crazy thing is, I don't think it's an issue in the sense that they can't get it to work properly to deter a lack of play calling diversity but rather a balancing issue for how "fun" the game is. In an interview before M10 came out, Ian talks about intentionally weakening adaptive AI in HUM v HUM games I guess because they felt like that was limiting User control, letting the AI adjust for you. So run/pass commit is likely some compromise to put some form of adaptive AI in control of the User. Same thing with the smart feature from Madden 09's weapons, it would show the User the their opponents play if repeated too many times but the AI players didn't do anything to adjust, without User input. I really wish you hadn't inadvertently started me down this rabbit hole. lol

Hmmm if it was added in 2005 it was probably added for that stupid JUKE GLITCH in Madden 2004 (Juke Glitch might have been in Madden 2005 can't remember). See this is what I'm saying. When you look back at when this stuff was added it is always something that was happening on the competitive scene or in online lobbies that was exposing the game and that Juke Glitch back then was a mess.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Also where is the core problem in regards to representing run/pass commit, the AI, the playart, the animations, all three or something else entirely? I am hoping there can be something straightforward that we all can get behind that devs and programmers can clearly envision a way to get into Madden on these current consoles.

I probably won't be a lot of help because I just don't think it should exist at all.

It's...just the way guys should play because that's how the game is played. Not to mention the thing brought up with calling a pass D and still "committing to the run", which is like...what?

I guess if they put it with crash on the DL, that's one thing that's at least a bit realistic. That would at least shift the gaps the LBs are targeting (since the line is slanting that way the defensive gaps shift too and then it's up to the OL to block at the point of attack and seal things off).

Or, perhaps make it more an on-the-fly communication to represent how guys communicate on the field when they seem something - though, that, too, should be based on ratings AWR and PRC, the leadership role, or maybe both. So if you're caught in the draw, you can use it to call "Draw! Draw!" while the play is going on to maybe help response. Likewise with the play action. Then put one in for screens - basically the deceptive-type plays.

I don't know - I just can't come up with something that doesn't feel like it's negating mental ratings and player tendencies.

[kjcheezhead]

Late to the thread. Seems like a lot of guys feel LBz suggestions are too complicated. Not sure why. Mostly it came down to 4 changes.

Quote:

1. The run commit only activates against run plays. This way it operates more like a run fit, which is more realistic than having complete sell outs against the run and plays into their read and react defense theme. Allow Play Recognition to govern whether guys bite on Play Action.

Seems easy enough to do. I think draw plays might go along with play action where play recognition/awareness decides if they commit?

Quote:

2. When committing left or right, edge defenders; DE's and 3-4 OLB should step up the field and set the edge.

So basically, if I commit to the defenses right the RDE or ROLB first step should be towards the line instead of to the right? Again, doesn't seem like a terribly complicated programming tweak.

Quote:

3. All other defenders in the front seven, with the exception of the backside DE or OLB, should simply attack the next gap over.

Again, similiar to suggetion 3 this doesn't sound too complicated of an adjustment

Quote:

4. Backside DE/OLB should step up field first as if he is looking for boot action or reverse, then trail the play.

The last defender away from the play doesn't commit like the rest, his assignment is to watch the backside.


Seems like simple fixes imo and they make sense logically when you think about how a defense would react to the run. I hope the devs can do these tweaks before the game drops.