OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummings

[ghettogeeksta]

Quote: Originally Posted by kjcheezhead

I don't quite agree. I would say in retrospect madden 10 was under under appreciated for what it started. Madden 11 was when Ian caved to external pressures. The extra point was removed, pro-tak removed, locomotion brought back ice skating players, etc. 12 was the year of franchise, but these guys work on multiyear plans. They knew when they released 12 that CCM was replacing it. My point is that 12 just happened to be a better game than the others, but the philosophy of bringing stuff in to rip it out the next year was already back at Tiburon. Bigfndeal made a good point as well. This Ian admits to mistakes and likes backbreaker physics over IE. Creative director Ian was very anti-euphoria and defended protak as superior. Maybe protak could've been improved, we will never know because it only lasted 1 game. IE is a major eyesore at the moment, and more or less a cheap imitation of physics, it's the worst of the three options.

I respect your opinion but im sorry, Pro-tak was horrible, the guys would just suck of the ball carrier with not kind of force or momentum at all, IE is far superior to Pro-Tak. Hopefully with the power of the next-gen consoles they can do more with it.

[MissionMaximus]

Quote: Originally Posted by BrianU

I believe CCM was a great first step towards that goal and I too am optimistic, we aren't there yet but in a few years we will be. We may have felt like that 5 years ago but I feel now there is ample evidence in the last two years of Madden along with the current group of devs to secure that endorsement. If they went to a subscription based model with monthly patches and maybe like 3 month major updates I would gladly fork over $10-20 a month for that. Here's to the hope that M25 next gen is a solid foundation for them to build up on, we see the small things fixed, and we see no more features stripped but instead continuous improvements with no subtractions.

How long does it take it's been going on for 9 years now. Without the NFL exclusive license this game would of gone the way of NBA Live. Competition would force EA/Tiburon's hand and that would be to compete against other NFL videogames. Competition drives innovation and quality in one's product/service.
Oh, how I remember here on OS after the exclusive license with the NFL was announced how people talked about how much better the game would be with EA being able to do this and do that with unfeatherd access now with the NFL. How competition didn't necessarily mean a better product, total bullsh*t. The NFL approached EA and forced the exclusive on them it's not their fault. Then EA bought exclusives with ESPN, NCAA, Arena Football, Hall of Famers, etc...
My main example is NBA Live do you honestly believe EA would of pulled Live's piece of crap if not for NBA2k or Xbox 1 do a complete 180 after E3 if not for the PS4.
The answer is NO THEY WOULD NOT, COMPETITION FORCED THEM TO DO IT.
The only way for madden to improve is if they lose the exclusive contract. Plain and simple.

[gr18]

In regards to Madden 10,I certainly agree that it was the biggest jump for Madden from the year before.It should be regarded by Ian as his biggest triumph and his favorite because I'm sure he was happier with and felt better about the company then.By '12 things were certainly a lot different and the creative restrictions and backlash made for an uneasy time.

I'm not sure though if some people hail '10 for what the game was at that time or look at it as the preferred game to play now.I picked the game up again several months back and while I liked it a lot when it came out,I think '12 is a much better game in comparison.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by MissionMaximus

How long does it take it's been going on for 9 years now. Without the NFL exclusive license this game would of gone the way of NBA Live. Competition would force EA/Tiburon's hand and that would be to compete against other NFL videogames. Competition drives innovation and quality in one's product/service. Oh, how I remember here on OS after the exclusive license with the NFL was announced how people talked about how much better the game would be with EA being able to do this and do that with unfeatherd access now with the NFL. How competition didn't necessarily mean a better product, total bullsh*t. The NFL approached EA and forced the exclusive on them it's not their fault. Then EA bought exclusives with ESPN, NCAA, Arena Football, Hall of Famers, etc... My main example is NBA Live do you honestly believe EA would of pulled Live's piece of crap if not for NBA2k or Xbox 1 do a complete 180 after E3 if not for the PS4. The answer is NO THEY WOULD NOT, COMPETITION FORCED THEM TO DO IT. The only way for madden to improve is if they lose the exclusive contract. Plain and simple.

Oh how I wanted to like your post because the vast majority of it I agree with but then you threw in the bold. I won't rehash that topic but according to certain reports, the bold is inaccurate.

Overall though I think you make good points, even though admittedly by Ian Madden under his tenure could have been much better, even without competition, had they not "caved" to external pressure. I haven't gotten into that statement much because all it would do is frustrate me to think about but that seems clear to me that even with the external pressures Ian and the team were given some form of choice. I picture Tiburon as this echo chamber or "bubble" where somehow bad or at least unconventional design ideas become accepted over essentially common sense, in the guise of innovation. Many people over the years in the software field have posted on various boards that yes there are external pressures that give their two cents but that usually the final decision is up to those that are directly in charge of the product. A take that to mean it's rare that a "suit" or marketing is directly dictating to someone how to do things that individual has to sign their name to and be directly accountable for.

That's what I was getting at about it would have been nice if during his tenure when he was making those decisions Ian had taken time to try to see Madden in a different perspective. I mean think about it, Ian admittedly caved to the external pressure and chose to take Madden in a different direction for M11 than M10, maybe from self doubt due to external influences focus on sales that he mentioned were down or not great for M10, only to quit Tiburon sometime the next year anyway. I think the lesson from this is to have the courage of your conventions and don't worry about the things that are out of your control because.....they're out of your control.

That's where that "bubble" comes into play again, imo because most anyone outside looking in would have deduced that of course M10 sells would be down because so much was left unfinished, namely Online Franchise Mode and Franchise mode as a whole still missing features from last gen Madden, along with being nowhere near as deep as HC09. Yet Tiburon had the audacity to claim that most gamers don't even play career/franchise modes and some posters picked up that talking point claiming that OS Franchise players were a minority. (check out Spliff3000's sig). Yet M13 added CCM that was a buggy mess but the fact that it was fundamentally the same career mode offline or online gave it crazy metrics for Looman to tout that as a success.

Some people seem to be lauding Ian for this interview and I don't begrudge them that but looking back at the past, I have a different opinion on his revelations.

[infemous]

I find it startling how much I tend to agree with Big F'n Deal.

I always used to find that Ian would be very tetchy, which may have come from over exposing himself to the fanbase, however, there was another point in this thread that I liked, which mentions that he could have been uncomfortable and tetchy as Creative Director because he agreed with what we were saying but was unable to say he did.

I think this is a problem with people in business however. They allow their job to compromise who they are. If you are in a job and are being told to do things you are not comfortable with doing, it is worth leaving that job.

It seems Ian eventually did do that, and for that, I can respect him, however, it is frustrating remembering a lot of his dismissive and condescending responses to our requests.

Mike Young is another one, who I feel probably deep down knows how much rubbish he has to regurgitate, and would do differently if he could, however it manifests into a condescending and mocking tone. 'Control Freaks who want 32 team control' is one thing I kept hearing that I took exception to...

The only person who seems to be blissfully ignorant and totally on board with everything because he is genuinely clueless is Donny Moore. He is basically a tool for marketing and acts as the cheerleader for Madden on twitter and promo vids.

What I read that Ian said that interested me was the gap in the market for a Sim NFL Management game, which I would love to see. Football Manager and Championship Manager before it for football/soccer is an incredibly successful franchise that relied upon text and just very sound concepts and AI to create an immersive and engaging, completely addictive game that sells incredibly well.

I feel that something like this for the NFL would finally give the league something that represents it well and can be a viable alternative for Madden.

It could also provide a template for Madden on how to approach Career mode.

I know that my approach to career modes in games like FIFA and Madden are always based off of my experiences with Football Manager, and it frustrates me no end to see a logical approach to teambuilding, ratings, scouting, progression and morale in a game and not in others.

As Ian is now developing for another company, is there any chance he could capitalise on this gap in the market and provide what he and we have always known we need for a worthy NFL title?

[BrianU]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Oh how I wanted to like your post because the vast majority of it I agree with but then you threw in the bold. I won't rehash that topic but according to certain reports, the bold is inaccurate. Overall though I think you make good points, even though admittedly by Ian Madden under his tenure could have been much better, even without competition, had they not "caved" to external pressure. I haven't gotten into that statement much because all it would do is frustrate me to think about but that seems clear to me that even with the external pressures Ian and the team were given some form of choice. I picture Tiburon as this echo chamber or "bubble" where somehow bad or at least unconventional design ideas become accepted over essentially common sense, in the guise of innovation. Many people over the years in the software field have posted on various boards that yes there are external pressures that give their two cents but that usually the final decision is up to those that are directly in charge of the product. A take that to mean it's rare that a "suit" or marketing is directly dictating to someone how to do things that individual has to sign their name to and be directly accountable for. That's what I was getting at about it would have been nice if during his tenure when he was making those decisions Ian had taken time to try to see Madden in a different perspective. I mean think about it, Ian admittedly caved to the external pressure and chose to take Madden in a different direction for M11 than M10, maybe from self doubt due to external influences focus on sales that he mentioned were down or not great for M10, only to quit Tiburon sometime the next year anyway. I think the lesson from this is to have the courage of your conventions and don't worry about the things that are out of your control because.....they're out of your control. That's where that "bubble" comes into play again, imo because most anyone outside looking in would have deduced that of course M10 sells would be down because so much was left unfinished, namely Online Franchise Mode and Franchise mode as a whole still missing features from last gen Madden, along with being nowhere near as deep as HC09. Yet Tiburon had the audacity to claim that most gamers don't even play career/franchise modes and some posters picked up that talking point claiming that OS Franchise players were a minority. (check out Spliff3000's sig). Yet M13 added CCM that was a buggy mess but the fact that it was fundamentally the same career mode offline or online gave it crazy metrics for Looman to tout that as a success. Some people seem to be lauding Ian for this interview and I don't begrudge them that but looking back at the past, I have a different opinion on his revelations.

I don't think it takes audacity to state that most people do not play franchise mode online or offline. It is a pretty damn niche mode. Most people do not download custom rosters or use sliders. The entire point of CCM is to stop neglecting those modes and I think it is a revolutionary and exciting concept not because of the current state of it, but for laying a solid foundation. Like was mentioned FIFA 10 to FIFA 13 was a huge improvement that was planned and executed upon. You surely remember the years where they literally added NOTHING to online franchise. Not even different menu graphics. By integrating online and offline franchise as well as superstar mode, they can update one game mode instead of 3 separate ones which means they don't have to divide development time between the 3 or repeat their efforts to add features to each mode. I personally would like to see Play Now and CCM be more integrated and allow us to do things like pick uniforms and custom playbooks for the CPU team that you can't do in CCM but can in Play Now. There is a divide there that should not exist but it is not as huge as the previous 3 I mentioned were.

It is a bold vision and one they are sticking with by the looks of it, that is only a good thing. I felt Ian's interview was optimistic and my own view of Madden is optimistic. I am not a die hard who has played that long but I do love the game of football and I do want a solid football sim which we do not have yet. I just don't understand the negativity towards Ian nor towards Josh. EA Sports is heading in the right direction implementing online career modes attached to offline career modes as well as real time physics and player traits to all their sports franchises. That seems to me to be their unified vision that they are going for. The progress is not as quick as we would like but progress is and has been made.

My only complaint is I wish sports game were more like a sandbox that we had more control over to tune to the gameplay experience towards what we want which could be more arcade or more simulation. I do not like having to rely on the development team to get things right such as CPU playbooks or game speed. I want more ratings, more sliders, more customization. The Show is such a force because they give you 5 ways to hit and 5 ways to pitch and let you tune them how you wish. Every sports game should follow that lead.

[ghettogeeksta]

All I know is that Madden 10 is the last Madden I bought before I gave up on the game.

[RGiles36]

I haven't listened to the interview, but I am glad to see that people are acknowledging that Ian Cummings was not the definitive problem. It seems there are some that shift blame to Cummings & co. in an effort to praise the work of the current regime.

I recently had a healthy debate with Smitty of TSS, and while I won't put words in his mouth, his position was that the new dev team has the game in the right direction whereas Cummings did not. And that's something I disagree with.

While I absolutely understand the key role of leadership on any project (in this case a videogame), the notion that Cummings had the wrong vision is incorrect IMO. In my limited interaction, Ian and that staff talked about taking the game in the exact same direction that the current dev team does. And for my money, the Ian-led M10 & M12 editions are still the best Maddens this generation has had to offer. This game hasn't gotten better since Cummings has been gone -- again my opinion.

Essentially, my point is that if this game is poised to get better, tell me it's b/c of improved technology, more resources, and tangible stuff like that. If the only argument is that the current leadership is SO much better than the previous leadership, then that doesn't get me very excited. The only thing that reasoning provides is a precursor to the infamous "this new dev team needs more time," line. I've heard that message since '09 .