2014 MLB Season Sim With MLB 14 The Show

[nomo17k]

Quote: Originally Posted by BrianU

That is my biggest beef with the AI, not using proper lefty righty pitching matchups when subbing. I've thought about zeroing the CPU Manager Hook slider and making pitching changes during the game for them. Takes much of the realism out of the game when you see a lefty come in to face a righty in a close one. It stands out because of how much the game does right. Just reading SCEA_Brian comment on the way hitting and pitching is programmed then you have this glaring lack of attention. I don't see it improving with next gen because I don't believe more RAM or CPU speed is needed for it it would seem to be a low resource issue.

While I do hope that the game incorporates a bit more complicated managerial decisions, the specific use of platoon advantage can be debated.

As far as I remember (from Knight's old posts), the AI does use information (stats/ratings) to decide what a better match is and that process doesn't really faithfully use the convention of putting RHP against RHB, LHP against LHB, etc. It uses the stats (or ratings, I'm actually not sure), not handedness, to decide which pitcher to use. That's why you feel some moves do not make sense based on the convention.

And I think that's fine and makes sense *if* the AI is actually a sabermetric-type, who uses odds more than anything for its strategy.

For example, in the 2012 one-game playoff between TEX and BAL, a man on third with two outs, Ron Washington replaced Yu Darvish with Derek Holland, LHP, to face against Nate McLouth, LHB. Some people questioned this move, because Washington had his setup man Koji Uehara RHP in the pen, who doesn't rely on pitches with lateral movement a lot so equally effective against LHBs and RHBs. Holland, while lefty, was quite hittable even by LHBs and not a strikeout pitcher like Uehara was. Holland gave up a hit and an insurance run to be eliminated.

(It is also interesting that Koji Uehara, who has actually been always effective after his first year in MLB, never really gained trust from Ron Washington, who is an old-school baseball guy who doesn't trust numbers that much. Uehara blew up in a few critical moments earlier as a Ranger, and that formed Washington's impression. But look what he has done for the Rex Sox given more opportunities.)

So I don't necessarily think the AI should simply use handedness.

But at the same time many managers are still old-school and follow the old wisdom (even if that reduces the odds of success). And some people just doesn't interpret numbers effectively. I thought shutting down Strasburg the way the Nats did in 2012 was stupid, in my opinion. So all these things can lead to a variety of strategy differences in the game.

I think that kind of difference may be fun to be implemented as the AI tendency.

[Shaffer26]

Quote: Originally Posted by kehlis

It shouldn't a problem in Oakland at all, the problem would be on the road. Maybe I'm picky but seeing an away team wearing white pants would drive me nuts.

Touché. However, they could just pick the A's at the start of the game, change the jersey and then just switch sides when the game begins.

[seanjeezy]

A pitcher's arsenal is just as important as his handedness, most relievers utilize a fastball/slider combo and have noticeable platoon splits as a result. As far as I know the CPU logic only utilizes ratings, and since only hitters have splits in the game, its dependent on those. Stats might be considered, but I haven't really noticed.

[kehlis]

Quote: Originally Posted by Shaffer26

Touché. However, they could just pick the A's at the start of the game, change the jersey and then just switch sides when the game begins.

Right, I agree there are workarounds, and it is pretty much a non issue.

Just pointing out the inaccuracy, and this wouldn't be a style guide issue.


But we don't know, maybe Keystone chose those pants. I know how people from the 570 think, especially if they went to Keystone college.

Those Giants have a mind of their own, I played against them in college.

[BrianU]

Quote: Originally Posted by nomo17k

While I do hope that the game incorporates a bit more complicated managerial decisions, the specific use of platoon advantage can be debated. As far as I remember (from Knight's old posts), the AI does use information (stats/ratings) to decide what a better match is and that process doesn't really faithfully use the convention of putting RHP against RHB, LHP against LHB, etc. It uses the stats (or ratings, I'm actually not sure), not handedness, to decide which pitcher to use. That's why you feel some moves do not make sense based on the convention. And I think that's fine and makes sense *if* the AI is actually a sabermetric-type, who uses odds more than anything for its strategy. For example, in the 2012 one-game playoff between TEX and BAL, a man on third with two outs, Ron Washington replaced Yu Darvish with Derek Holland, LHP, to face against Nate McLouth, LHB. Some people questioned this move, because Washington had his setup man Koji Uehara RHP in the pen, who doesn't rely on pitches with lateral movement a lot so equally effective against LHBs and RHBs. Holland, while lefty, was quite hittable even by LHBs and not a strikeout pitcher like Uehara was. Holland gave up a hit and an insurance run to be eliminated. (It is also interesting that Koji Uehara, who has actually been always effective after his first year in MLB, never really gained trust from Ron Washington, who is an old-school baseball guy who doesn't trust numbers that much. Uehara blew up in a few critical moments earlier as a Ranger, and that formed Washington's impression. But look what he has done for the Rex Sox given more opportunities.) So I don't necessarily think the AI should simply use handedness. But at the same time many managers are still old-school and follow the old wisdom (even if that reduces the odds of success). And some people just doesn't interpret numbers effectively. I thought shutting down Strasburg the way the Nats did in 2012 was stupid, in my opinion. So all these things can lead to a variety of strategy differences in the game. I think that kind of difference may be fun to be implemented as the AI tendency.

There should be different splits for pitchers just like there are for batters. (H/9 vs lefty and H/9 vs righty) but right now that doesnt exist. Some guys are mysteriously even in both matchups, most abide by the traditional thinking of same same matchup, and a few are opposite of what nature intended them to be successful against. I am not so sure they use MLB stats to determine the pitchers they sub.. what would they do for created guys like in OSFM? I've seen far too many bad AI bullpen management to believe that.

It should be tied to the against lefty and against righty splits of the pitcher rater than handedness strictly as long as the ratings are done appropriately. I would like to see them bring in a reliever to face just one batter as well. If this stuff can't be done then give the user more and easier control of the CPU's bullpen management during gameplay similar to how we can have complete control of their franchise using 30 team control in the menus. Maybe we can designate before the game which relievers the AI should bring in vs leftys and which to bring in vs rightys.

And while on this pitching tangent I would like an innings limit slider we could leave default (none) or edit for each pitcher. We could set it for our own team and have a reminder pop up when we inch closer to that limit to remind us we wanted to limit him but can be overridden by us (soft limit), and we could set it to the CPU pitchers to replicate guys on inning limits in real life which once reached they would demote them (hard limit)

[nomo17k]

Quote: Originally Posted by BrianU

There should be different splits for pitchers just like there are for batters. (H/9 vs lefty and H/9 vs righty) but right now that doesnt exist. Some guys are mysteriously even in both matchups, most abide by the traditional thinking of same same matchup, and a few are opposite of what nature intended them to be successful against. I am not so sure they use MLB stats to determine the pitchers they sub.. what would they do for created guys like in OSFM? I've seen far too many bad AI bullpen management to believe that. It should be tied to the against lefty and against righty splits of the pitcher rater than handedness strictly as long as the ratings are done appropriately. I would like to see them bring in a reliever to face just one batter as well. If this stuff can't be done then give the user more and easier control of the CPU's bullpen management during gameplay similar to how we can have complete control of their franchise using 30 team control in the menus. Maybe we can designate before the game which relievers the AI should bring in vs leftys and which to bring in vs rightys. ...

I don't actually like the platoon split ratings especially for pitchers, because they just look like magic and sweep all the intricacies of the game under the rug. I am in favor of making all the existing elements of the game have more substantial meanings that correspond to the real-life counterparts.

For example, the basic platoon splits likely exist because of the difficulty of tracking ball trajectory from pitchers of the same handedness (e.g., http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...rticleid=17405). This would depend on the pitcher's delivery and the release point, which is a concept already in the game, so I want the game to replicate this in hitters having a slightly more difficulty recognizing pitches against pitchers that take advantage of this effect through delivery (in addition to their own natural ability hitting against pitchers of different handedness).

Also, as seanjeezy alluded to in a post above, some pitchers are fairly neutral or have lopsided platoon advantage because of pitch repertoire. Pitches that run away from a hitter's side effectively enhances the effect that is talked about in the above Baseball Prospectus article, so that contributes to platoon advantage.

I feel condensing all these effects into magic numbers like split X/9 ratings would be a mistake, from a purely simulation point of view.

Thinking about individual pitches and not magic ratings adds to the strategy side of the game, in my opinion. (This is related to how I feel all the (true) attribute ratings and OVR should be hidden or at least obscured.)

If you really want to get an out in a critical moment, do you want to browse the game interface, looking at those X/9 numbers and just pick the guy with the highest rating on your team? (That would maximize your success purely from a dice-roll point of view.)

Or do you actually want to look at who the batter is, and think about which pitcher on your team has the best chance of retiring that batter, based on all the factors (handedness, delivery, individual pitches that the pitcher has, how well the pitcher command these pitches, etc.) that make baseball the sport it is?

I actually prefer the latter. The former just feels like you are comparing numbers on spreadsheet, not a baseball game.

[seanjeezy]

Good post Nomo, all of the necessary variables already exist within the game, no need to add more.

We know that CPU batters track pitches to a certain degree so we know the logic exists somewhat. Now we just need the manager AI to keep track as well and have it influence their decision making.

[BrianU]

Quote: Originally Posted by nomo17k

I don't actually like the platoon split ratings especially for pitchers, because they just look like magic and sweep all the intricacies of the game under the rug. I am in favor of making all the existing elements of the game have more substantial meanings that correspond to the real-life counterparts. For example, the basic platoon splits likely exist because of the difficulty of tracking ball trajectory from pitchers of the same handedness (e.g., http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...rticleid=17405). This would depend on the pitcher's delivery and the release point, which is a concept already in the game, so I want the game to replicate this in hitters having a slightly more difficulty recognizing pitches against pitchers that take advantage of this effect through delivery (in addition to their own natural ability hitting against pitchers of different handedness). Also, as seanjeezy alluded to in a post above, some pitchers are fairly neutral or have lopsided platoon advantage because of pitch repertoire. Pitches that run away from a hitter's side effectively enhances the effect that is talked about in the above Baseball Prospectus article, so that contributes to platoon advantage. I feel condensing all these effects into magic numbers like split X/9 ratings would be a mistake, from a purely simulation point of view. Thinking about individual pitches and not magic ratings adds to the strategy side of the game, in my opinion. (This is related to how I feel all the (true) attribute ratings and OVR should be hidden or at least obscured.) If you really want to get an out in a critical moment, do you want to browse the game interface, looking at those X/9 numbers and just pick the guy with the highest rating on your team? (That would maximize your success purely from a dice-roll point of view.) Or do you actually want to look at who the batter is, and think about which pitcher on your team has the best chance of retiring that batter, based on all the factors (handedness, delivery, individual pitches that the pitcher has, how well the pitcher command these pitches, etc.) that make baseball the sport it is? I actually prefer the latter. The former just feels like you are comparing numbers on spreadsheet, not a baseball game.

That seems like it would be a long term project and might require next gen whereas simply looking at pitchers batting average against lefty/righty and plugging in the numbers is a short term fix that could be done rather easily and make a large difference within the current game engine. But yeah given the advances of PitchFX and the like your idea of getting away from ratings altogether is solid. I wish they had a simple option in franchise mode where you could hide the overall from all screens. There are endless little things I would add. I wish The Show had the WoW model of monthly updates with a subscription fee and just continually was refined and refined until we reached baseball nirvana (unpopular idea im sure! )

On the hitting side I imagine something like bat speed and plate coverage could be a similar evolving of the hitting/pitching matchups. Right now a player who is known as being a 'fastball hitter' isn't modeled in the game but with a more physics based approach I could see that being the next step. I read Russells interview in another thread where he talked about adding more individuality to batters in terms of modeling guys who are more prone to strikeout against balls in the dirt or against breaking pitches. I like your ideas I just don't see them reinventing the hitter pitcher dynamic as much as upgrade what they have now.