Madden 16: Is Connected Franchise Sacrificing Realism? (Roundtable)

[CT Pitbull]

great post guys. With every passing year i crave a quick season mode more and more. I will try it and most likely not get through a full season like its been since CCM/CFM was introduced. Happy for those who enjoy this mode but i just cant do it. And its not for the lack of trying.

[LorenzoDC]

Quote: Originally Posted by jpdavis82

Like I said before, CFM got the bulk of the resources this year, but that doesn't mean everything they invested in made the cut for 16. The game is NOT taking CFM in a more casual/less realistic direction. Kolbe has some really creative/sim things he wants to do, the goal this year was make it more accessible and fun so more people will play the mode and hopefully like it more. I know there aren't a lot of improvements for the sim/hardcore CFM crowd yet, but there will be in the future, the scouting was redone, combine results, free practice, visual depth chart, tuned confidence & regression, so it's not all just for the casual in M16.

JP, seriously, every year you write thousands of words across a hundred comments when all you ever really have to type is "wait til next year."

If you typed fewer words, you could avoid always contradicting yourself, as in:

Quote:

The game is NOT taking CFM in a more casual/less realistic direction.

followed by. . .

Quote:

the goal this year was make it more accessible and fun so more people will play the mode and hopefully like it more.

There's no logic that can stand up against your faith based devotion to the game or the devs or both.

[oneamongthefence]

It's just so easy to build a powerhouse. Rebuilding is a one year process. Xp should be dialed way back or a cap on how much stats can go up in a given year.

[DeuceDouglas]

I think it was M11 that had the tagline "Simpler. Quicker. Deeper." and it seems like that has been the mantra ever since except they forget to include the deeper part. Everything has turned into doing everything in as little time as possible and trying to make everything as simple as possible. Before it was "play a game in 20-30 minutes" with GamePlan and now it's about getting into CFM quicker and making everything more simple than it was before.

Outside of goals, nothing is really getting any deeper or even being added. Scouting seems like it's been turned into a watered down version of what it was before. Free agency wasn't even touched. I'm not buying any sort of tuning as being something "new". That should be something that is constantly being worked on and tweaked throughout the games cycle and going into the next iteration.

There is just a complete disconnect between what a franchise mode should include and what changes and it seems like more often than not it completely sacrifices realism for simplicity and accesibility.

[Hooe]

I think that the XP goal system has clearly been made deeper, what with the ideas of dynamic goals that change during games and somewhere I read the concept of chaining relevant goals together is also part of the game.

Whether people here like the XP system is another question altogether, but there's added depth there as to what the player can do to reap the rewards of the system that's in place.

Scouting not as deep, sure. I would call it streamlined. The previous process of picking and choosing ratings was tedious and no more or less "sim" than the Madden 15 scouting mechanic. Easily my least favorite part of CFM last year. Admittedly I'm not convinced that this new system will be all that and a bag of chips, but I'm curious to see how the changes play out and I welcome the change.

[aholbert32]

Quote: Originally Posted by GiantBlue76

How do you know this? Is there some quantitative measure you are using for this? Anyone who plays a game cares about something that engrosses them. If that weren't true, then NBA 2k (for example) would never sell a copy. It's ridiculously in depth compared to what we have for football. Whether you like it or not is not the discussion here. It is the FACT that it is massive in depth from player controls, to playbooks, to the depth in the league and my player modes. If you like or love sports, you are interested in these things. There are modes in games for someone to just play a game of madden every once in a great while, however, those who are routinely buying the game every year (or a yearly sports game in general) are interested in a deep, immersive sports game. I was discussing this very thing with a co-worker of mine. He plays MLB the show. He plays it daily. He does not follow Major League Baseball though. He doesn't watch MLB games on TV and doesn't really have a favorite team. He is what you would call your "casual" gamer. (I hate that term, because I think it is nonsense, but that's a whole different discussion). He plays it because he loves how immersive it is and how much stuff there is to do OUTSIDE of just playing the games. The team management aspects, contract aspects, player and personality management, etc. etc. all gets him psyched to play it. This is my problem with Tiburon's approach. They claim that they want more people to play certain modes because not enough people are playing them. They reason isn't because they are "too in depth" or difficult. They aren't playing them because they are oversimplified, boring and there is very little immersion. There is a reason why so many of the people who went there providing input asked for an option to skip pre-season. Why do people want to skip it? Simple... Because it's pointless. It's just another game except worse. No confidence, no position battling, no real evaluation or storylines get generated about break out players, nothing. There is nothing interesting about it. Why bother? So instead of thinking along these lines, let's just make it one less thing to bother doing in the offseason/pre-season. Pretty soon there will be no point to contract negotiation or player management. Why bother? The contracts are simple beyond belief. There is nothing fun about managing my team. I simply offer 3 or 4 contracts to the player and he accepts or he says buzz off. Big deal. There is nothing about him outperforming a contract or having a major injury affect his value or price in the market. There is nothing that is exciting about doing any of this. How about weekly prep? You guys always talk about them wanting to make Madden fun for the masses. How is gameprep fun? I click a few buttons and rush through. I don't know anyone who is excited about preparing their team to play the following week. How about the ability to prepare like a real NFL team would? Give me a host of things to do that could affect my team differently than another guy's team in my league. How am I managing my injured players? Are they getting the best care? (Obviously I am touching on only a few examples here). There is so much that could be done here it's not even funny. These are the things that are fun. Something that is truly engaging and immerses me into the fantasy of running my own NFL franchise. Of course, you can always make it easier. Have OPTIONS (imagine that) that allow the user to be in control of as much or as little as he/she desires. There is so little in CFM currently that immerses a user into the feeling they are running an NFL team. No one is asking to simply skip through everything and just get to the games. This is why people who are single player folks (I am not one of them, online league only) play the game for 2 weeks and then forget about it. It's boring. The actual games are only a small fraction of a franchise mode, and clearly, you can see that many people don't even PLAY the actual games. They want to be immersed in the management aspects and the play calling. Without that, those long time franchise mode fans are now alienated and don't feel inclined to play or purchase Madden.

Wow this is a hell of a response to one sentence. I was just countering his statement that people were believed casual fans arent interested in franchise mode. But I'll bite.

I dont have a quantitive measure that says that casual fans arent interested in the in depth franchise features. But you dont have one that says they are interested in those things.

What I do have is years of experience talking to developers at 2k, EA and MS who have stated that their internal research shows that most fans dont go that in depth when it comes to franchise mode. In fact, I had conversations with 2k when 2k14 was released where they acknowledged that many of the sim features that they removed from 2k14 and added back to 2k15 werent added because they attract casual fans. They were added back because 2k is more committed to sim fans than most sports gaming companies.

Another bit of evidence is that based on EA's MO, they are concerned with adding things to their franchise that interest casual fans. They dont seem interested in adding the features I listed. In fact, they've openly stated that they dont think some of those features would interest casual fans. Now I dont think that EA is just talking out of their ***. They have a marketing team that polls a broad set of fans and asks them what they consider important.

I'm a sim player. I am focused on making the games I play as realistic as possible. I'm focused on stats being accurate. I would like to see more control in the game and more options. But I really dont care if restricted FAs are in the game. I could care less about 5th yr options. I care alot about formation subs but Im not naive enough to think that the majority of gamers care or demand that they are in the game.

****, the demand isnt even that high at OS. We have a formation subs demand thread here and its been open a week and its at 6 pages. This isnt even the first formation subs thread created. We have one damn near each year and hardly anyone posts in it. So if the demand isnt high on OS (the premiere sim gamer site) where else is it going to be high?

Finally, I'm not arguing that EA should add more sim features to CFM. I'm not even justifying EA's decision to not include them. I'm not saying casual fans wouldnt enjoy some of these features. Still if your focus is on bringing in casual fans, I can understand why you would focus on other features that have a higher demand or your internal polling says more people are interested in.

[jmurphy31]

Quote: Originally Posted by PVarck31

Look, I'm not saying Madden's franchise mode shouldn't be more in-depth, because it should be. I'm just saying I think people over-estamate the amount of players who want every fine detail to be included in that mode. I think a lot of people just want to breeze through the week and play their next game and make it to the Super Bowl and then they are happy. I'm just saying I think there are more people like that than people like us who want every little detail of a real season and so on. I bet if you asked 10 dudes how restricted free agency works you'd be lucky if half of them would even know. I don't know maybe I'm wrong and everyone knows

Great thread by the way, especially the last few posts.

But my question is why can't we have it both ways. Can't we have a set of toggle switches which we can allow the CPU do everything if a gamer wants to only play games each week. Or have a toggle switch if you only want to draft in the off sesson. You can basically do that now, play your game, and hit advance week. How much simpler can they make it.

I also think there are more than just hardcore/casual fans. I think there are casual fans, who play some play now games or head to head once in awhile. Then you have the in between player. Plays different modes, plays cfm a year or two but just does some stuff in it. Finally you have the hardcore guy. Creates draft sheets, does all the weekly check box items, watches replays, etc. I'm sure there are more levels than 3 types of gamers. But that's why OPTIONS are great. Why are only given one way to play.

[nuckles2k2]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dj_MyTime

Guys just need to realize this game is built for the masses, and non-educated football fans need something simple and hand held to assist them in building their teams for the two months they actually play the game. Hard-core fans will likely never feel completely appeased as that is the minority in the bottom-line aka dollar-line. IMO I don’t mind the new concepts, many users in CFM’s didn’t even know how to locate individual player goals, an update via a ticker for a player close to reaching a goal IMO is a good idea. But to those acting as if it’s gonna create mass-stat padding I think you’re wrong, we were goal based last year, only difference was we didn’t get in game updates.

Do the "casuals" even dedicate the same amount of time to CFM tho?

I doubt if there's any real way to gather that data other than a poll, and those are wildly unreliable. But I don't see how Tiburon would extrapolate whether the data they're looking at is from a "casual" or a "sim-head." And I seriously doubt that the "casuals" pay enough attention to CFM to be put-off by anything deemed "too complicated." When they see "play game" the majority of them just hit "A" or "X" and go to the field to play the game.

Why am I drawing that conclusion? Because there's nothing about the word "casual" that makes me think they're worried about the progression of their team, what scheme the team is running, and who would fit best in that scheme. I'm willing to bet the offseason consists of signing the FAs who they know by name, and take the first person listed on the draft board, when it's their turn...if they 1) even make it to the offseason, or 2) don't just sim thru the whole thing.

So...my point being...one demographic is begging, pleading, and crying for particular features, while the other is the massive, but silent, conglomerate of unquestioning sales for the franchise.

Why not take the "build it, and they will come" approach? Because if you do, they will. Give the sim-heads what they want, and the casuals will still buy it and play play-now, MUT, online, and play/sim their way through CFM. While the ppl who care about the nuances of coaching/running an organization would be satisfied as well.

Madden is literally the only NFL game on the consoles that's supposed to realistically depict the league -- So...do it... ppl will still buy it.

-----------------------

As it's been previously stated, the goals system *that seems to be implemented* wouldn't really bring an authentic feel. If the goals are hardline goals, that's unrealistic. A RB who's asked to gain 1,000 yards, but falls short by 57 yards and "fails" is going to be treated as if those 943 yards never happened?

Are they going to have goals for RBs to pick up a certain number of blocks in a given game? If they do...why the hell would you do that...? What if the user identifies a blitz, and makes the back the hot receiver out into the flats every time he sees an opportunity? Does the back get punished for not hitting the set goals?

Sounds unrealistic, right? Sure. But with the contrived way of forcing the user to look at particular stats, usually the glamour stats, how would you highlight the nuances of a back like Forte who rushes, catches, & is one of the best blocking backs in the league? And why would finding a way to highlight & reward a back who picks up blitzes be something that the "casuals" would quit the game over?

Why are DBs penalized for not having an INT? Huh? Shouldn't there be a focus on passes defensed? Or even for a run of consecutive games without being thrown at?

It's like, the XP system is so very obviously trying to bring RPG aspects, but then they're just throwing football logic out the window, and sticking to watered down aspects of "video game" for people who don't really care about "all of that."

Btw, I'm not attacking you Dj, just sharing my 2¢.