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[AdamJones113]

Quote: Originally Posted by bad_philanthropy

Adamjones it almost reminds me of what happened when EA's Football titles (Madden and NCAA) moved from PS2/Xbox to PS3/360 and while things looked better, the AI, in terms of spatial awareness and general game awareness took a huge hit. Where on PS2 running backs and QB's in Madden and NCAA seemed capable of navigating space in a semi-sophisticated manner, on 360/PS3 I remember how shocked I was by how stupid runners with the ball were (especially QB's) up until NCAA 14/Madden 16.

See, if you look at it that way, then it seems clear (to me) that the problem is with the console upgrade. It's not even a problem. Think of it in terms of student popularity. In elementary school, you move up in status as you go from grade 1 to 5 (i.e. AI intelligence increases, or rather builds upon itself on one console). Yet that status needs to be rebuilt in middle school, but indeed does build up the more years you spend (in the same place/on the same console). So I understand that. Weird analogy, lol, but effective, I hope.

The big problem is the fact that all of a sudden, boards no longer matter! But we know that they matter when players contact them (hits into the boards, etc), so that means the problem is the stick. If we did indeed get better stick-on-skate collisions, there is absolutely no reason for the stick-on-boards collisions to be this poor. And that video shows us just how poor. That's the annoying thing.

[bad_philanthropy]

Quote: Originally Posted by AdamJones113

See, if you look at it that way, then it seems clear (to me) that the problem is with the console upgrade. It's not even a problem. Think of it in terms of student popularity. In elementary school, you move up in status as you go from grade 1 to 5 (i.e. AI intelligence increases, or rather builds upon itself on one console). Yet that status needs to be rebuilt in middle school, but indeed does build up the more years you spend (in the same place/on the same console). So I understand that. Weird analogy, lol, but effective, I hope. The big problem is the fact that all of a sudden, boards no longer matter! But we know that they matter when players contact them (hits into the boards, etc), so that means the problem is the stick. If we did indeed get better stick-on-skate collisions, there is absolutely no reason for the stick-on-boards collisions to be this poor. And that video shows us just how poor. That's the annoying thing.

Agreed. Your analogy is spot on. Only problem is, I am pissed to accept a console/hardware generation migration equates to another decline in AI and gameplay quality. I think the board physics (?)/clipping is a huge issue. It allows too many impossible plays to happen—especially when you consider how many plays in hockey are started or sustained along the boards.

We also need a concerted effort to make the AI play hockey according to the physics the user is subject to, or proper hockey generally. The cpu rifling a no look pass should be a disaster most of the time—especially if they attempt to fire a behind the back pass from below the goal line. That should, in many cases, be a broken play, and battle for possession, or a turnover producing a two pass breakaway or two on one/two on two counter-attack situation.

I promise EA, the less tick-tack-toe passing, and the more authentic hockey the game plays, the more enjoyable it will be for all users.

[jyoung]

Many of this game's problems can be traced back to the fact that sticks still can't physically interact with anything except the puck.

Until sticks become solid objects that aren't allowed to clip through everything on the ice except the puck, the gameplay will continue to feel more like ping pong than hockey.

[bad_philanthropy]

Quote: Originally Posted by jyoung

Many of this game's problems can be traced back to the fact that sticks still can't physically interact with anything except the puck. Until sticks become solid objects that aren't allowed to clip through everything on the ice except the puck, the gameplay will continue to feel more like ping pong than hockey.

This is a great point. I want to ask, as a user who has played and written a lot about the series over the past few years, would you agree that this gen the boards are more or less a non-factor in gameplay as well? Stick interaction has never been a part of the series (and it should be), but now it feels like the boards are minimized as well.

I think stick interaction, in addition to the boards are a fundamental pillars of gameplay in hockey differentiating it from other flow sports like soccer or basketball.

If I were to emphasize anything about gameplay development going forward it would be sticks and boards mirroring their role in actual hockey.

[BL8001]

Quote: Originally Posted by bad_philanthropy

Adamjones it almost reminds me of what happened when EA's Football titles (Madden and NCAA) moved from PS2/Xbox to PS3/360 and while things looked better, the AI, in terms of spatial awareness and general game awareness took a huge hit. Where on PS2 running backs and QB's in Madden and NCAA seemed capable of navigating space in a semi-sophisticated manner, on 360/PS3 I remember how shocked I was by how stupid runners with the ball were (especially QB's) up until NCAA 14/Madden 16.

This, so much this...

To me, what happened is graphics took such a giant step forward and for whatever reason, gameplay/ai regressed.

I mean is this better than nhl 94? Of course it is.

But with how close to reality most of these games are becoming we want them to behave closer to reality too.

It is not too much to ask.

For the issue I had the video of, no look perfect passes from impossible situations, I dont know how they would fix this.

One plus for nhl is the cpu will score on you. I mean had he turned and passed it for the 1 timer it would have been fine. So maybe they can do that, maybe they can tweak it so cpu players need to use vision lanes better.

Because look, if I had the gameplay tutorial helper system on and put myself in the same spot the game would never tell me perfect pass would be behind you with a defender on your back.

[AdamJones113]

Quote: Originally Posted by bad_philanthropy

Agreed. Your analogy is spot on. Only problem is, I am pissed to accept a console/hardware generation migration equates to another decline in AI and gameplay quality. I think the board physics (?)/clipping is a huge issue. It allows too many impossible plays to happen—especially when you consider how many plays in hockey are started or sustained along the boards. We also need a concerted effort to make the AI play hockey according to the physics the user is subject to, or proper hockey generally. The cpu rifling a no look pass should be a disaster most of the time—especially if they attempt to fire a behind the back pass from below the goal line. That should, in many cases, be a broken play, and battle for possession, or a turnover producing a two pass breakaway or two on one/two on two counter-attack situation. I promise EA, the less tick-tack-toe passing, and the more authentic hockey the game plays, the more enjoyable it will be for all users.

While I don't like accepting it as an issue, I have to admit I don't know enough to accept otherwise. History points in that direction, so I take it unhappily.

Yeah, board-play/physics needs an overhaul. This is an example of very poor board physics, which is distressing considering the fact that, as you say, board play in real life has many more repercussions.

There's so much to talk about in regards to passing, but people have said it all already. No need for me to reiterate, so I'll focus once again on this particular video. And yeah, this pass is literally impossible in real life. You just can't do it. Yet it's possible, apparently, in NHL 16. BL8001, would love to see some more vids!

EDIT: just saw jyoung's post. Damn. Great point...

[BL8001]

Bad, re: board play.

I think I have a video of a fine use of it. Right after I turned my passing from manual on to off I played a beautiful pass off the boards.

With manual on I would have tried to play it up to the forward but with it off the game decided off the boards would be a more safe path and it was correct.

Let me see if I have the video.

[bad_philanthropy]

One thing I neglected to mention was that I though manual passing on gen 3 did a good job obeying physics and eliminating impossible passes like this. It wasn't perfect but you couldn't skate flat out and fire perfect cross ice (or short passes for that matter), and you certainly couldn't fire no look passes reliably into the slot. That sort of pass was rightfully a turnover. Passing, especially cross ice, is really hard in hockey, and contingent upon body and foot position, and skating momentum. I think representing the management of speed and passing was far better last gen.

On gen 3 the cpu offensive AI was pretty dull, generally, but below the goal line, instead of firing an impossible pass in front they probably would have worked it down low or up along the boards. That's all I want, an awareness/limitation of impossible passes and a compromise to the conservative play along the boards, or even trying to protect the puck in board play.