Madden NFL 17 Video - New England Patriots vs. Arizona Cardinals (cookieboy17)

[K_GUN]

Quote: Originally Posted by playajay98

This is the reason why I always play with the speed threshold on ZERO. I noticed out of the box years ago that linebackers were running down receivers. For some reason, Madden thinks it's ok for speed to not be accurately represented. Play with threshold on zero and it opens the game up a lot. Much more dynamic AND realistic.

Winner winner chicken dinner

Speed threshold will fix that✔️✔️

And some global edits


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[OhMrHanky]

Quote: Originally Posted by SolidSquid

Had to turn it off after the play at 50 seconds. Why is that even possible I just don't get it.

Lol. Well, it was user controlled. He did move slower than a LB, I'd say, but don't get me wrong, I don't want to see that, either. I don't think the CPU, by itself, would move the DT quite that well (although, maybe they can, lol).


Edit: sorry, realized some others already discussed this. I just hopped in the discussion a little late. U can disregard. [emoji41]

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[Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by howboutdat

So let me get this striaght, just because his Accel is 80, that alone gives him ability to sprint that fast for over 3 seconds. i mean as fast as a wr. Shouldnt his speed also , somehow play into that. Like shouldn't a player with 88 speed , 80 accel be able to run faster than a 64 speed 80 accel anyone? Seems to me if a players speed rating is low, even with a higher accel, he should still be slow. Accel i thought just got you up to your top speed faster the higher it is....So this 64 speed guy could get to his top speed of "64" faster than someone with 65 accel.... What am im missing here?

The parts you're missing are A - the speed differential between an NFL defensive tackle and an NFL wide receiver isn't as big you think it is, and B - using trigonometry we know that Branch's vertical velocity down the field is faster than the receiver.

A player who runs 40 yards in 5 seconds (roughly Alan Branch) is running an average velocity of 16.4 miles per hour. Meanwhile a player who runs 40 yards in 4.4 seconds (many "faster" NFL wide receivers, but not the fastest) is running an average velocity of 18.6 miles per hour. At 16.4 mph, Branch can cover twenty yards (roughly the distance he ran on this play to cover the pass) in 2.5 seconds. The 18.6 mph WR covers twenty yards in 2.2 seconds. A difference of 0.3 seconds. For perspective, the average human takes between 0.3 and 0.4 seconds to blink his eye lids.

Further, the nearby receivers on this play are not running vertical patterns down the field, they are running across the field in post and crossing patterns. As such, using trigonometry we know that their apparent downfield straight-line velocity (i.e. the distance they run along the edge of the triangle rather than the hypotenuse) is decreased. If the 4.4 receiver makes even as much as a 30 degree cut (roughly the angle Fitzgerald takes on his route, he makes his cut after about five yards), he reduces his downfield velocity to 16.1 miles per hour; he's still running 18.6 miles per hour, but he's no longer running perpendicular to the goal line, so the vertical component of his velocity vector is reduced. Branch, who is still running perpendicular to the goal line, has a downfield straight-line speed which is actually faster than the 4.4 wide receiver at this point, because he's not running at an angle. As such, he catches up.

As speed is currently modeled in Madden, using math we find that it's perfectly reasonable for Alan Branch to keep up in this specific scenario. Again, where I take issue with this is that in real life a defensive lineman struggles to maintain his maximum velocity for even 25 yards, whereas in Madden, any player can maintain his maximum speed for at least 40 yards (and that's with STA at zero).

[SolidSquid]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

The parts you're missing are A - the speed differential between an NFL defensive tackle and an NFL wide receiver isn't as big you think it is, and B - using trigonometry we know that Branch's vertical velocity down the field is faster than the receiver. A player who runs 40 yards in 5 seconds (roughly Alan Branch) is running an average velocity of 16.4 miles per hour. Meanwhile a player who runs 40 yards in 4.4 seconds (many "faster" NFL wide receivers, but not the fastest) is running an average velocity of 18.6 miles per hour. At 16.4 mph, Branch can cover twenty yards (roughly the distance he ran on this play to cover the pass) in 2.5 seconds. The 18.6 mph WR covers twenty yards in 2.2 seconds. A difference of 0.3 seconds. For perspective, the average human takes between 0.3 and 0.4 seconds to blink his eye lids. Further, the nearby receivers on this play are not running vertical patterns down the field, they are running across the field in post and crossing patterns. As such, using trigonometry we know that their apparent downfield straight-line velocity (i.e. the distance they run along the edge of the triangle rather than the hypotenuse) is decreased. If the 4.4 receiver makes even as much as a 30 degree cut (roughly the angle Fitzgerald takes on his route, he makes his cut after about five yards), he reduces his downfield velocity to 16.1 miles per hour; he's still running 18.6 miles per hour, but he's no longer running perpendicular to the goal line, so the vertical component of his velocity vector is reduced. Branch, who is still running perpendicular to the goal line, has a downfield straight-line speed which is actually faster than the 4.4 wide receiver at this point, because he's not running at an angle. As such, he catches up. As speed is currently modeled in Madden, using math we find that it's perfectly reasonable for Alan Branch to keep up in this specific scenario. Again, where I take issue with this is that in real life a defensive lineman struggles to maintain his maximum velocity for even 25 yards, whereas in Madden, any player can maintain his maximum speed for at least 40 yards (and that's with STA at zero).

I'm sorry but this is one time I cannot use science to prove a point lol. If it was JJ Watt it'd be an easier pill to swallow but we are talking about 350 pound 31 year Alan Branch. Let's be real if the speed differential between DTs and WRs in NFL is as negligible as you make it seem, why do we barely see it on Sunday's? Heck he even engages the guard to stuff the run first then drops back into perfect coverage to swat a pass, that's a great defensive play in my book.

Let's call a spade a spade, this is one area (player movement/locomotion) where madden actively seeks to not be sim. They need user controlled players to be able to do superhuman things regardless of ratings for the sake of "fun". It's fine though bc not everyone plays that way.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

The parts you're missing are A - the speed differential between an NFL defensive tackle and an NFL wide receiver isn't as big you think it is, and B - using trigonometry we know that Branch's vertical velocity down the field is faster than the receiver.

Was Branch starting off in a sprinters stance facing away from the line of scrimmage? Wouldn't a DT need to get up from his 3 point stance, turn around 180 degrees and accelerate? It seems time would be lost doing all of that.

I don't remember this part of the video so my assumptions may not be accurate, but it does make sense to me that a DT would have a difficult time dropping back fast enough to get that kind of depth.

I don't think science using perfect sprinters conditions really covers this.

EDIT: Ah, I read the post after yours. So Branch engages the Guard first, then turns and drops into coverage? Did you not see the video? or remember the play? I would need to go back cause I don't remember it. I don't see the time it takes to engage the guard, turn, and accelerate in your math above.

[TombSong]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

The parts you're missing are A - the speed differential between an NFL defensive tackle and an NFL wide receiver isn't as big you think it is, and B - using trigonometry we know that Branch's vertical velocity down the field is faster than the receiver. A player who runs 40 yards in 5 seconds (roughly Alan Branch) is running an average velocity of 16.4 miles per hour. Meanwhile a player who runs 40 yards in 4.4 seconds (many "faster" NFL wide receivers, but not the fastest) is running an average velocity of 18.6 miles per hour. At 16.4 mph, Branch can cover twenty yards (roughly the distance he ran on this play to cover the pass) in 2.5 seconds. The 18.6 mph WR covers twenty yards in 2.2 seconds. A difference of 0.3 seconds. For perspective, the average human takes between 0.3 and 0.4 seconds to blink his eye lids. Further, the nearby receivers on this play are not running vertical patterns down the field, they are running across the field in post and crossing patterns. As such, using trigonometry we know that their apparent downfield straight-line velocity (i.e. the distance they run along the edge of the triangle rather than the hypotenuse) is decreased. If the 4.4 receiver makes even as much as a 30 degree cut (roughly the angle Fitzgerald takes on his route, he makes his cut after about five yards), he reduces his downfield velocity to 16.1 miles per hour; he's still running 18.6 miles per hour, but he's no longer running perpendicular to the goal line, so the vertical component of his velocity vector is reduced. Branch, who is still running perpendicular to the goal line, has a downfield straight-line speed which is actually faster than the 4.4 wide receiver at this point, because he's not running at an angle. As such, he catches up. As speed is currently modeled in Madden, using math we find that it's perfectly reasonable for Alan Branch to keep up in this specific scenario. Again, where I take issue with this is that in real life a defensive lineman struggles to maintain his maximum velocity for even 25 yards, whereas in Madden, any player can maintain his maximum speed for at least 40 yards (and that's with STA at zero).

With all that said you sound just like one of those guys who have never been to a drag race, and looks at a 12.9 and a 12.6 time slip and thinks it was a close race, not realizing the car that ran the 12.6 finished almost 4 car lengths in front of the 12.6 car. On paper it looks close, when you actually see it, there's a big gap of distance between the 2.

[SolidSquid]

Quote: Originally Posted by bucky60

Was Branch starting off in a sprinters stance facing away from the line of scrimmage? Wouldn't a DT need to get up from his 3 point stance, turn around 180 degrees and accelerate? It seems time would be lost doing all of that. I don't remember this part of the video so my assumptions may not be accurate, but it does make sense to me that a DT would have a difficult time dropping back fast enough to get that kind of depth. I don't think science using perfect sprinters conditions really covers this. EDIT: Ah, I read the post after yours. So Branch engages the Guard first, then turns and drops into coverage? Did you not see the video? or remember the play? I would need to go back cause I don't remember it. I don't see the time it takes to engage the guard, turn, and accelerate in your math above.

I was mistaken he engages the center first not the guard but the play is at 50 seconds into the video take a look.

[Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by SolidSquid

I'm sorry but this is one time I cannot use science to prove a point lol.

I certainly did just use math to make a point.

Feel free to present a counter-point backed up with your own math, rather than just saying "you're wrong because I say you are". The latter isn't reasonable or productive discourse.

Quote:

If it was JJ Watt it'd be an easier pill to swallow but we are talking about 350 pound 31 year Alan Branch

The only two pieces of information that matter as far as the video game is concerned are his SPD and ACC. A 400-lb player with SPD 99 ACC 99 in Madden has the same top speed and ability to reach top speed as a 150-lb SPD 99 ACC 99 player, as should be the case; hypothetically speaking, if I can run a 4.24 40 at 400 lbs in real life, I can run just as fast as the 150-lb guy who also runs a 4.24 40, and my weight doesn't matter.

Quote:

Let's call a spade a spade, this is one area (player movement/locomotion) where madden actively seeks to not be sim. They need user controlled players to be able to do superhuman things regardless of ratings for the sake of "fun". It's fine though bc not everyone plays that way.

No. When you take control of a player in Madden, you override his mental ratings; your controls are his mental ratings, and your controls are that player's AWR rating. You're still limited by that player's SPD / AGI / ACC / JMP / STA ratings. That's absolutely not getting boosted, and it makes no sense to boost them.

As someone who tested player running speeds extensively to help calibrate data conversions to SPD and ACC for FBGratings, I'm confident in offering this opinion decisively.

Quote: Originally Posted by bucky60

Was Branch starting off in a sprinters stance facing away from the line of scrimmage? Wouldn't a DT need to get up from his 3 point stance, turn around 180 degrees and accelerate? It seems time would be lost doing all of that.

Madden players don't require a sprinter's stance to maximize their acceleration to their top speed, and the receivers aren't starting from a sprinter's stance either so it's a wash. Heck, Fitzgerald gets bumped coming out of his stance by the WILL backer Jones, increasing the amount of time it takes for him to get to top speed as well.

Moreover, I'm using average velocity in my math and not momentary velocity, which really doesn't really matter in this case because it doesn't affect the total time it takes either player to achieve the required distance.

Quote:

EDIT: Ah, I read the post after yours. So Branch engages the Guard first, then turns and drops into coverage? Did you not see the video? or remember the play?

Yes. Of course I watched the play in the video before I posted. Multiple times. While I was posting. Otherwise I would have no base of knowledge from which to offer my opinion. I watched it a few more times before writing this long post. Here's what I see happening:

The ball is snapped. Branch engages the guard, disengages immediately, then starts sprinting backwards. He's not "dropping into coverage" with a DB backpedal and hip swivel, he literally plants his foot and sprints towards the opposite end zone as fast as he can. As mentioned above, the relevant receiver, Fitzgerald, gets bumped coming out of his stance off the line, slowing him down momentarily, before he immediately turns his route towards the field side of the play. How much he turns is hard to tell given the perspective of the camera, so I've estimated he turns 30 degrees east away from perpendicular to the goal line. The quarterback then holds the ball for another two full seconds before throwing the ball, which is enough time for Branch to run 20 yards from the line of scrimmage to the destination of the throw as demonstrated by the math I provided. As it stands, Fitzgerald still got further down the field than Branch did (so my angle estimate is probably wrong), but the throw is so low that Branch really doesn't have to do anything but get in the way to defend the pass.

Please tell me what is wrong with my description.

Quote: Originally Posted by TombSong

With all that said you sound just like one of those guys who have never been to a drag race, and looks at a 12.9 and a 12.6 time slip and thinks it was a close race, not realizing the car that ran the 12.6 finished almost 4 car lengths in front of the 12.6 car. On paper it looks close, when you actually see it, there's a big gap of distance between the 2.

I'm not a racing fan, but I have indeed watched a drag race or two on ESPN2. Maybe you can tell me differently, but the few I have watched, the cars never turn.

Further, the gap between drag race cars is pronounced at small time differences because those cars are moving at hundreds of miles per hour. Football players don't move nearly that fast. A defensive lineman running north at an average velocity of 16.4 mph for two seconds covers 16.04 yards due north, and a receiver running north at 18.6 mph for two seconds covers 18.18 yards due north. However, the receiver isn't running true north; he's running at 18.6 mph at a 30 degrees east from north for two seconds (so an actual north-bound speed of 16.1 mph, via Pythagorean theorem). In two seconds at 16.1 mph he covers 15.74 yards due north. He also covers 9.3 yards due east, because he's still actually moving 18.6 mph, but at an angle. Since Fitzgerald runs towards Branch and never crosses his face or behind him, the east distance component doesn't matter. We can easily see, then, that Branch at his maximum speed moving directly north is moving north faster than Fitzgerald is while Fitz runs his route which is angled away from true north. Branch beats Fitzgerald to the spot by nine inches.

Math.

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Seriously y'all, the intent of my post was to correctly identify where Madden could stand to improve something, that being their simplified model of player acceleration, top speed, and fatigue. At the same time, however, my point is also that what's happening in this play isn't outright ridiculous, other than the user's decision to drop Branch into deep coverage and his opponent's response to throw a pass directly at him and into triple coverage.