The 'strategic' parts of the 5 vs 5 need a Sim Nation burst of flavour

[Smirkin Dirk]

I love 2K. Im 60 games into my Mavs season and love the game to game action. I can get my roster to replicate a lot of what we love about the NBA, but in a video game form.

I just had DeRozan make 12 mid range jumpers on me. I get Giannis facing me up on 20 foot isos and crashing to the hole, not launching 3s. I can barely make a pass against OKC without getting it deflected or stolen. The game animates so beautifully.

But all of this is done through editing tendencies, ratings, plays and badges.

The strategic stuff can't be replicated. This side of the game hasn't had a huge leap in the last 6-8 years. As some evidence, some of the freelances still describe their ideal player fit as JJ Redick and Isaiah Thomas. Here's some of the things we can't do, but should be able to. Feel free to add your own.

*Yeah most of these are on the defensive end.

Make help from the low man more consistent. Even when you set your center to Gap/Leave them, their help defense is very, very inconsistent. I know the players have been programmed with 'eyes'; often they're looking at their opponent in the corner while the CPU drives to the rim.

Rebuild the 'Defensive settings screen'. Gut it. Thrown it out. Start again. So much of it doesn't work. Even worse, it's hard to figure if some of the things work. A lot of it has been in the game for years. For example, there are options to switch screens 1-4, on screens involving the 5, switch off screens, hand offs, bigs, guards, all. Like...what?? Test everything, throw out anything that doesn't work.

Improve DHOs This is more of a gameplay mechanic. But so many teams use a bigs running DHOS out of delay and elbow sets. The guard will flash hard, and the big will screen and drop, pop. Sometimes they'll slip, fake. etc. In 2K DHO's have not really changed in 10 years. Sometimes the giard will cut hard to the big, sometimes they'll kind of walk up, get the ball and just stop. The big does not screen. The settings screen has options of how to handle DHOs. (Over, under, switch) which is completely unnecessary as the DHO mechanic is really ineffective most of the time (Jeebs has some counter examples).


Modernise defenses All teams switch. Maybe not their 5. It's rare to see CPU defenses switch in 2K. Being able to match up hunt can add so much to the game. Do the Hawks allow the switch of Trae? Do they start to double? Do they hedge? This is the modern NBA, and we just don't see it.

I haven't been doubled out of PNR once in 2K25. It is a really common tactic. In years past when Ive seen doubles, there's been no rotation so it's one pass and an open shot.

Also, runinng the same 3 point plays should not result in an open 3 every time. Let's switch on those off ball screens sometimes please.

Improve Match up logic This was introduced in about 2K16. Where did it go? At the moment, 2K defensive match ups are entirely position based. Needless to say, we have to manipulate our own match ups so we feel challenged. Cmon.

Pre-rotate/rotations I don't think this has worked before this year.When I set it for a player and they have the ball on the wing, I do see a help defender pinch in. Then if the guy with the ball moves towards the center of the court, the help defender bizarrely follow him around the court. There very little 'help-the-helper'. That's a common theme. There is sometimes 1 rotation, but rarely 2. When you hit LB/L1 for a manual double, a double will come, but there is no/rare backside rotation.

[Tynole14]

Quote: Originally Posted by Smirkin Dirk

I love 2K. Im 60 games into my Mavs season and love the game to game action. I can get my roster to replicate a lot of what we love about the NBA, but in a video game form. I just had DeRozan make 12 mid range jumpers on me. I get Giannis facing me up on 20 foot isos and crashing to the hole, not launching 3s. I can barely make a pass against OKC without getting it deflected or stolen. The game animates so beautifully. But all of this is done through editing tendencies, ratings, plays and badges. The strategic stuff can't be replicated. This side of the game hasn't had a huge leap in the last 6-8 years. As some evidence, some of the freelances still describe their ideal player fit as JJ Redick and Isaiah Thomas. Here's some of the things we can't do, but should be able to. Feel free to add your own. *Yeah most of these are on the defensive end. Make help from the low man more consistent. Even when you set your center to Gap/Leave them, their help defense is very, very inconsistent. I know the players have been programmed with 'eyes'; often they're looking at their opponent in the corner while the CPU drives to the rim. Rebuild the 'Defensive settings screen'. Gut it. Thrown it out. Start again. So much of it doesn't work. Even worse, it's hard to figure if some of the things work. A lot of it has been in the game for years. For example, there are options to switch screens 1-4, on screens involving the 5, switch off screens, hand offs, bigs, guards, all. Like...what?? Test everything, throw out anything that doesn't work. Improve DHOs This is more of a gameplay mechanic. But so many teams use a bigs running DHOS out of delay and elbow sets. The guard will flash hard, and the big will screen and drop, pop. Sometimes they'll slip, fake. etc. In 2K DHO's have not really changed in 10 years. Sometimes the giard will cut hard to the big, sometimes they'll kind of walk up, get the ball and just stop. The big does not screen. The settings screen has options of how to handle DHOs. (Over, under, switch) which is completely unnecessary as the DHO mechanic is really ineffective most of the time (Jeebs has some counter examples). Modernise defenses All teams switch. Maybe not their 5. It's rare to see CPU defenses switch in 2K. Being able to match up hunt can add so much to the game. Do the Hawks allow the switch of Trae? Do they start to double? Do they hedge? This is the modern NBA, and we just don't see it. I haven't been doubled out of PNR once in 2K25. It is a really common tactic. In years past when Ive seen doubles, there's been no rotation so it's one pass and an open shot. Also, runinng the same 3 point plays should not result in an open 3 every time. Let's switch on those off ball screens sometimes please. Improve Match up logic This was introduced in about 2K16. Where did it go? At the moment, 2K defensive match ups are entirely position based. Needless to say, we have to manipulate our own match ups so we feel challenged. Cmon. Pre-rotate/rotations I don't think this has worked before this year.When I set it for a player and they have the ball on the wing, I do see a help defender pinch in. Then if the guy with the ball moves towards the center of the court, the help defender bizarrely follow him around the court. There very little 'help-the-helper'. That's a common theme. There is sometimes 1 rotation, but rarely 2. When you hit LB/L1 for a manual double, a double will come, but there is no/rare backside rotation.

Well said
[emoji817][emoji817][emoji817]

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[Smirkin Dirk]

I was playing the Spurs. I had my usual big line up with either Gafford or Lively at centre. Team was slow, and I had no inside presence because of Wemby.

I played them next game in a b2b. I benched my big and played small. I doubled a lot, caused turnovers (23 of them) and deflections. I was able to push the pace and scored 120 on only 43% shooting.

I was manual doubling. The intercept and steal badges had a huge impact.

What's my point? The gameplay mechanics are good. The strategic aspects are not. I had to manual double when I thought it was safe. Choosing doubling from the coaching menu is far too unreliable. When I did double, there was no rotation on the backside.

Another example. I can partially recreate the defense of OKC in 2K. I give all their players gold or HOF intercept badges and max out their play passing lane tendencies. They pick off a heap of my passes. That is a gameplay mechanic recreation.

Im watching real life (lolwat) OKC obliterate Minnesota. They are pressuring full court. They are pressuring even non-shooters. They are doubling every pick and roll. They are causing a heap of TOs. You don't see these strategic aspects in 2K. As a user, the options are too unreliable. For the CPU, we've seen a decline in the breadth of their strategic adjustments. You don't see the CPU pressure full court. Double off pick and rolls. It's very predictable. The mechanics are good; attacking Gobert is a lot harder to do than KAT. But the strategic aspect of the game has plateaued for what feels like 6-7 years.

[Smirkin Dirk]

If you want to see what I mean, watch the 3rd quarter of the OKC/Minnesota game today and watch how the Thunder play defense, not just the results (heaps of TO's caused).

Ask yourself if you can recreate this in 2K or if you've seen the CPU do it.

[MarkWilliam]

I'm just irked at how all of these mechanics are in the game, but don't seem to function fully. I also can not stand how the AI literally does exactly the same thing on PnR coverages. Can we get different teams doing different coverages (queue the 2K16 Scott OG blog)?

Not nearly enough switches on PnR by the AI despite the mechanic being in the game. Not seeing enough drop coverages by opposing AI centres and as a result, I can't snake into the midrange on PnR coverages which I would LOVE to do more of.

I just wish the offline/AI had some more priority from the devs so we could get some more variety when we play different teams.

I am really enjoying the game, but this is the stuff that would take it to the next level.

[MarkWilliam]

Sorry for the double post, but this is a terrific thread! I hope it takes off and I REALLY hope the right sets of eyes sees it and considers it.

I REALLY hope some of these changes can be made to the game in an update and not have to wait for 2K26 to see AI PnR coverage variations.... but that's WISHFUL thinking, I know.

[Smirkin Dirk]

Quote: Originally Posted by MarkWilliam

I'm just irked at how all of these mechanics are in the game, but don't seem to function fully. I also can not stand how the AI literally does exactly the same thing on PnR coverages. Can we get different teams doing different coverages (queue the 2K16 Scott OG blog)? Not nearly enough switches on PnR by the AI despite the mechanic being in the game. Not seeing enough drop coverages by opposing AI centres and as a result, I can't snake into the midrange on PnR coverages which I would LOVE to do more of. I just wish the offline/AI had some more priority from the devs so we could get some more variety when we play different teams. I am really enjoying the game, but this is the stuff that would take it to the next level.

I just revisted that blog. Some of the things mentioned never came to fruition. But plenty did.

And the thing is, some of those things would have been let down by gameplay mechanics. (e.g. back thensliding was huge, and players could slide around without regards to weight and momentum. Also drop defense was OP because pull up jumpers were so poorly animated, you had no room to get it off).

Back then the strategic aspects was far more advanced than the gameplay mechanics.

Now, the gameplay mechanics have outpaced the strategic stuff. Here are some examples from 2K16 that worked at least partially well but seem to have disappeared.

WINGSPANS – Length is everything in the NBA, so we’re taking full advantage of our “true-to-life wingspans” in NBA 2K16. Players such as Kawhi Leonard and The Greek Freak will defend at the appropriate distances and take the proper containment angles knowing where THEY need to be to contest the shot.

NEW - Off-ball defensive directives and behaviors- If you were a heavy play caller last year, you could have tons of success with simple floppy and off-screen concepts. That is no longer the case because the AI will now get on the hip and chase out shooters such as Redick and Korver. The defense has a complete understanding of pin downs, back screens, cross screens etc


NEW – Player-specific defensive behaviors & Crowd System – Like Mike mentioned to you earlier, we really wanted to make elite defenders feel special. When you play against a Kawhi Leonard or a Tony Allen, they feel like they’re constantly “bodying” you all night. They wear you down in real life, and they’re going to wear you down in NBA 2K16. We didn’t stop there, different defenders will react differently to particular moves.

NEW - TEAM-SPECIFIC DEFENSES – All 30 NBA Coaches will have their own adaptability and defensive coaching philosophies in NBA 2K16.

Like mentioned above, these coaches will now adapt to players differently depending on
Exhibition
Season
Playoffs
Player type
Behavior
Efficiency
And more

NEW – Stretch 4s and pop recognition – Again, in games prior to NBA 2K16, players like Kevin Durant can come over and set 1-3 ball screens and destroy you! Now teams understand who the screener is and how he’s playing.
One Example:

Problem: Durant is going to set a ball screen on the point guard, he’s on fire and on track to score 40+

Answer: Hedge defender now decides to “hug up” on Durant, eliminating the pop threat.


NEW - Every pick and roll defense in the NBA is in NBA 2K16!

Our Adaptive coaching engine has allowed us the ability to incorporate positional hedging combinations. A team like the Raptors who can now hard hedge with their power forward and drop their center in the pick and roll.


NEW – Multiple defensive player assignments - Just like the finals, a player like LeBron could see up to four different Warriors match up with him throughout a game. This can change due to quarter, score and how he’s having success.

NEW - Elite defender responsibility – In any other basketball game prior to NBA 2K16, a Cavs vs. Bulls match up would have Dunleavy guarding LeBron the entire game. Now certain teams will put their best defenders on you depending on the situation. Expect players like Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, or Kawhi Leonard to switch on to elite perimeter players.

[Smirkin Dirk]

I just saw an interview with Scott O'Gallagher talking about his role with College Football.

What a huge loss for 2K. He's brought the sim stuff to them.