Madden 2010 News Post

Madden NFL 10: Updated Running Animation

03:18 PM - May 1, 2009 by Ian_Cummings

We're having some export problems today - the ball keeps showing up rotated 90 degrees in the guys hands. In the meantime, I can show one run style that was slightly adjusted by Simon...this one is still in progress but I figured people would like to see it and give feedback.

Slightly adjusted run style from easports on Vimeo.

Thoughts?

Also to compare, I uploaded the sprinter style (that no one seems to like)...this is the 09 version so hopefully I'll have a comparison video of the new one soon once we sort out Simon's export problems.

Madden NFL 09 run style from easports on Vimeo.

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Member Comments

# 241 NFLHITMAN @ 06/24/09 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wohlm


	lol so true. If only the fans knew what these developers went through. As a community you have to realize, they will not get everything right. Would you rather have really great quality on certain parts of the game or a bunch of parts that were mediocre? I'll take quality over quantity anyday.

Would it be ok to give only $6 for Madden 10 instead of $60?

If they are going to charge for a complete game than $60 is fine but if they are going to give us a game without a fixed running animations maybe they should take the price down.

You don't see EA saying it is ok to give less than $60 dollars do you???

They want the whole $60 and I would love a complete game that has been promised with the green videos of the running animations that has yet to be seen in Madden 10.

Here is how I think the deal should play out....

EA: Madden 10 for $60
Consumer: I will buy it if its everything you promised since day one of a new dev crew.
EA: Well some things didn't make it in the game like the running animations but you might see them in Madden 11.
Consumer: I thought you guys promised the running animations would be fixed and even posted the green videos showing the fixes?
EA: Yes but as I said before we couldn't get those in to Madden 10.
Consumer: And you are still wanting $60?
EA: Yes because we said they would be in Madden 11 remember?
Consumer: I remember the green videos posted saying it would be in Madden 10.
EA: It will look better than all the videos we posted so far because we only played every video on slow speed and it was also a alpha build.
Consumer: So your saying I give you my $60 and your telling me that the everything is set on normal speed and everything will work just the way you promised?
EA: Yes, so can we get the $60?
Consumer: Sure, Here you go!
EA: Thanks for the $60 kid and hopefully through a couple patches or Madden 11 we will live up to the promise we made for Madden 10!

Just want to point out I am talking about Madden the game and the game maker behind it ( EA ), Not any individual person.

# 242 Alacr1ty @ 06/24/09 09:32 PM

wow, just wow. guys seriously. this game was terrible in 09, everyone knows this. Tiburon has a team working on 1 the next gen madden 10 right? but they also have a team that has to work on 10 for ps2, psp, and ds. Meaning they get less than a year to put new features into the game. Everyone on this board wants madden to be the best it can be, since its the only nfl game we can get. The last team totally messed madden up, for 3 straight years. This year, Phil, Iand and crew have come in and fixed as many problems as possible. There are obviously still going to be problems. Since there were problems from 3 years of doing nothing. I for one am more then happy and impressed with all the work they've put into this game, and there dedication to the community.

# 243 soxnut1018 @ 06/24/09 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Cumming's Twitter


	So the OS folks are making huge deal about the running animations...is that the highest priority issue for 10? If so, is that a good thing?

Gotta agree with Ian on this one.

# 244 NFLHITMAN @ 06/24/09 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alacr1ty


	wow, just wow. guys seriously. this game was terrible in 09, everyone knows this. Tiburon has a team working on 1 the next gen madden 10 right? but they also have a team that has to work on 10 for ps2, psp, and ds. Meaning they get less than a year to put new features into the game. Everyone on this board wants madden to be the best it can be, since its the only nfl game we can get. The last team totally messed madden up, for 3 straight years. This year, Phil, Iand and crew have come in and fixed as many problems as possible. There are obviously still going to be problems. Since there were problems from 3 years of doing nothing. I for one am more then happy and impressed with all the work they've put into this game, and there dedication to the community.

Ummm I understand where you are coming from but EA themselfs said that those running animations in the green videos would be in Madden 10 not us. We hoped for a better animation but we didn't know if they would do it. They posted those videos to show how they are changing the game and than we see none of it when it comes to the animations.

If EA would not have posted the those videos showing the fixes in Madden 10 than maybe nobody would be getting upset like I was when we saw the actual trailers of Madden 10.

Like I said I have Madden already paid for but it still pisses me off that what we saw in those fix it videos is not what we see in M10. Do I think that Madden 10 has improved? YES! by a long shot but....The core of the game is running animations since it is seen ALL GAME LONG on EVERY PLAY instead of a halftime show that is seen only at halftime.

Don't get me wrong here because I want the halftime show, refs, hand warmers, chain gangs, online franchise but not if we have to sacrifice the core of the game which is the running animations.

If your car can't start do you buy accessories for it like Rims or do you make sure it works and runs perfectly 1st? What use is a car all nice and pretty if the engine it self doesn't produce results?

# 245 DBoweshow8282 @ 06/24/09 10:02 PM

I just think better running animations shouldnt have been promised if they werent 100% sure they would make it in.

# 246 NFLHITMAN @ 06/24/09 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soxnut1018


	Gotta agree with Ian on this one.

Running Animations should have been #1 on priorities for Madden 06-07-08-09 & 10.

Like I said in the 1st running animations thread a looooong time ago...This should have been #1, #2, and #3 before Hand Warmers, Chain Gangs, Refs and Fluff.

# 247 Colladie @ 06/24/09 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NFLHITMAN


	Running Animations should have been #1 on priorities for Madden 06-07-08-09 & 10. Like I said in the 1st running animations thread a looooong time ago...This should have been #1, #2, and #3 before Hand Warmers, Chain Gangs, Refs and Fluff.

There is more than 3 people working on Madden 10

# 248 beau21 @ 06/24/09 10:17 PM

I try to not be to opinionated but MAN there are some people that will just never be satisfied around here.

I mean goodness gracious.. look how bad Madden has been since coming to the 'next-gen' platforms and how people have been wishing to no end for some communication and a new direction from the development team..

Now for Madden 10 we finally are seeing the fruits of what we've been asking for. We have a new development team, a new direction and for the first time in a long time, some optimism that seems likely to be justified.

We have a handful of developers on these boards regularly giving us updates and asking for opinions from us and now that we're starting to get what we've been asking for for so long, it's not enough.

I've messed with some animation and programming software before in some of my engineering classes and like people have said countless times before, NOTHING is as easy to program as you would think.

The jump we've seen so far from Madden 09 to Madden 10 is nothing short of phenomenal. In no way is Madden 10 going to be flawless. I'm not here to say the developers have done no wrong and that this is the year that Madden for certain gets it right. I'm not in position to make a statement like that. All I'm saying is that the development team is obviously trying and I can't believe that we don't have more people that respect that as opposed to demanding more and more.

I, as much as anyone would love to see improved running animations but you know what? If they want to wait until 11 to do it and do it right that's fine with me with all the things they've done and added this year.

It's gotta be give and take. From both sides. There's going to be things we (the consumers) want it that will make it in. There's going to be things that we want that won't make it in. Same with things the developers want it. And sometimes issues arise and things that we want in (or are supposed to be in) have to be sacrificed for one reason or another. It happens.

Who knows? I mean.. maybe they're hoping to go with the road that the throwing animations got this year and go with more signature running styles for next year.

I know this has been a long post and I'm sure I've rambled on but I'm really just tired of seeing all the negatives when we should really be thankful the developers take the time to come on here and share their vision and direction with us and allow us (the consumers) to share our feedback and then (a lot of times) see it directly implemented and/or changed in the game.

Oh.. and if you took the time to read all that.. I appreciate you respecting my opinion just as I try and do for everyone on here. After all.. this is a message board and is a place to share your opinon(s). I just wish more people would do it in respectable manners.

# 249 mrprice33 @ 06/24/09 10:18 PM

but wait a second, those running animations are all without the ball. the bad ones are all ball-carrier based, aren't they?

so is it possible those are in the game, but you just didn't notice them due to them being specific routes?

edit: exactly at the poster above. they did custom throwing styles and kicking styles on top of everything else. who knows what changed running styles can do? what if they have different run styles but they can't get the collision to match up, or the ball to match up, or any one of 1000 different things? would you all rather have pretty running with goofy/weird outcomes?

# 250 SoxFan01605 @ 06/24/09 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NFLHITMAN


	Running Animations should have been #1 on priorities for Madden 06-07-08-09 & 10. Like I said in the 1st running animations thread a looooong time ago...This should have been #1, #2, and #3 before Hand Warmers, Chain Gangs, Refs and Fluff.

I think it's more a question of what they can get done more than priority. I doubt they sat around and said "I know running animations need work, but F that...we gotta get towels!"

I think, if we are to take Ian at his word, they did what they could, but given the work it needed (in relation to it's cooperation with other systems) it only garnered minimal attention.

I agree to an extent with your point. It should be a priority over fluff. It was right to put it behind OL/DL interaction, WR/DB jostling, AI logic, etc though IMO.

Of course, I'd have to see the level of improvement in those other areas before I can 100% claim it worked.

# 251 beau21 @ 06/24/09 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoxFan01605


	I think it's more a question of what they can get done more than priority. I doubt they sat around and said "I know running animations need work, but F that...we gotta get towels!"

Agreed.

# 252 NFLHITMAN @ 06/24/09 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoxFan01605


	I think it's more a question of what they can get done more than priority. I doubt they sat around and said "I know running animations need work, but F that...we gotta get towels!" I think, if we are to take Ian at his word, they did what they could, but given the work it needed (in relation to it's cooperation with other systems) it only garnered minimal attention. I agree to an extent with your point. It should be a priority over fluff. It was right to put it behind OL/DL interaction, WR/DB jostling, AI logic, etc though IMO. Of course, I'd have to see the level of improvement in those other areas before I can 100% claim it worked.

Actually the guy who does the animations posted that he had a chance to redo the running animations in Madden 10 but opted to to 9 man gang tackling so they did say as you posted....

"I doubt they sat around and said "I know running animations need work, but F that...we gotta get towels!"

I will look up the anim8tors thread on it.

# 253 NFLHITMAN @ 06/24/09 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoxFan01605


	I think it's more a question of what they can get done more than priority. I doubt they sat around and said "I know running animations need work, but F that...we gotta get towels!" I think, if we are to take Ian at his word, they did what they could, but given the work it needed (in relation to it's cooperation with other systems) it only garnered minimal attention. I agree to an extent with your point. It should be a priority over fluff. It was right to put it behind OL/DL interaction, WR/DB jostling, AI logic, etc though IMO. Of course, I'd have to see the level of improvement in those other areas before I can 100% claim it worked.

This post is right from the guy who does the animations on Madden 10.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anim8or


	I would love some more feedback on this from you guys. (Animation Director of Madden (Simon) Here BTW). The stiffest cycles I went through personally and touched up myself over the last month or so (which was after this video was captured I believe, and the sprinter run cycles were the ones I gave the most love to with some back and forth with Ian Cummings). FIFA locomotion is amazing, coming from FIFA they spend more time on locomotion than anything else, it's pretty much what FIFA is and they do it better than any game in the world ever has. I am planning/hoping to take their entire locomotion engine next year (it was on the table this year but I felt prioritizing gang tackles would be much more of a game changer and the animation and technical work associated with going from 3 to 9 man gang tackling was pretty immense). Running changes would be purely visual and i really wanted to finish the tackle engine design (2 years in the making) and we wanted much better blocking plus presentation focus was a huge thing from the community. However, we have loads of cycles we could tune up visually, it's certainly not too late for that. I would like to know of other games that do it better visually as comparison for visual style in the cycles themselves that you guys are talking about, some youtube videos would be a huge help (of games with better run cycles). Even pointing out the moments in our trailer where you think they look bad... To me the WR and DB at the end look great running together and since our loco system got a complete overhaul last year with a lot of positive response we focused on other areas this year (can't redo loco every year...), but maybe I have just be staring at this stuff for too long... More feedback (clips of games that do it better, or pointing out where in our video it looks particularly bad would help us narrow down what you guys are directly talking about here).

I am posting the Anim8tors original post and in no way am I attacking this man. I am just pointing out that it was a decision on 9 man gang tackling or running animations and they chose 9 man gang tackling instead.

# 254 SoxFan01605 @ 06/24/09 10:39 PM

^^^That's contrary to your previous point though. That's not prioritizing over "fluff"...that's prioritizing needs. You may disagree with the order of precedence, and that's fine (I'm sure we all have our own ideas on that). But that's separate from your original argument that they chose "fluff" like hand warmers, chain gangs, etc. I would hardly call tackling animations fluff.

As I alluded earlier, sometimes prioritization comes down to balancing quality AND quantity. As much as I agree that running animations need work, I would be sorely disappointed if that was ALL that got improved from an animation standpoint. I also think people could make a pretty fair argument that tackling animations needed every bit the work it apparently got, but that's obviously subjective and separate from the point.

EDIT: and Anim8tor's post basically addresses that. It's the amount of work involved in relation to what's addressed that was a key determinant in the why running animations was pushed back.

They both required too much work to get them both done. It wasn't the secondary stuff that pushed it out, but another needed, primary feature.

# 255 NFLHITMAN @ 06/24/09 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoxFan01605


	^^^That's countering your previous point though. That's not prioritizing over "fluff"...that's prioritizing needs. You may disagree with the order of precedence, and that's fine (I'm sure we all have our own ideas on that). But that's separate from your original argument that they chose "fluff" like hand warmers, chain gangs, etc. I would hardly call tackling animations fluff. As I said, sometimes prioritization comes down to balancing quality AND quantity. As much as I agree that running animations need work, I would be sorely disappointed if that was ALL that got improved from an animation standpoint. I also think people could make a pretty fair argument that tackling animations needed every bit the work it apparently got, but that's obviously subjective and separate from the point.

I understand your thoughts and opinion but how many threads on OS over the years has been about Running Animations? Compare that to anything else on this forum or any other forum for that matter when it comes to game development and I bet there is a 5-1 ratio with running animations being the 5.

This is obviously is a huge issue with gamers that play any game and especially when we all play Madden. Like I said " I have Madden 10 already paid for because I see the improvements and like them" I just wish as many others that the Running Animations are the #1 priority over every thing else in the game.

" You would not put new rims, tint, paint, neon light and more on a car when the Engine itself does not work "

Fix the engine 1st than make it pretty!

# 256 NFLHITMAN @ 06/24/09 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoxFan01605


	^^^That's contrary to your previous point though. That's not prioritizing over "fluff"...that's prioritizing needs. You may disagree with the order of precedence, and that's fine (I'm sure we all have our own ideas on that). But that's separate from your original argument that they chose "fluff" like hand warmers, chain gangs, etc. I would hardly call tackling animations fluff. As I alluded earlier, sometimes prioritization comes down to balancing quality AND quantity. As much as I agree that running animations need work, I would be sorely disappointed if that was ALL that got improved from an animation standpoint. I also think people could make a pretty fair argument that tackling animations needed every bit the work it apparently got, but that's obviously subjective and separate from the point. EDIT: and Anim8tor's post basically addresses that. It's the amount of work involved in relation to what's addressed that was a key determinant in the why running animations was pushed back. They both required too much work to get them both done. It wasn't the secondary stuff that pushed it out, but another needed, primary feature.

I don't really think that 9 man gang tackling is a need at all

# 257 mrprice33 @ 06/24/09 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NFLHITMAN


	" You would not put new rims, tint, paint, neon light and more on a car when the Engine itself does not work " Fix the engine 1st than make it pretty!

isn't adding pro-tak an engine addition? the running animations serve no functional purpose in the game.

and it's not just the up to 9 man gang tackling, it's the steering of animations, layering, blending, etc etc. it is the biggest addition to madden this year, and if they didn't do it, but instead had nice running animations, i'd be disappointed.

# 258 NFLHITMAN @ 06/24/09 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siznit


	Yea. A nine man gain tackle really wouldn't happen with little momentum of a ball carrier when they are already being tackled by one person.

Not trying to rain on anyones parade but the videos I have seen of the gang tackling reminds me of this instead of NFL football....

Pro-Tak IMO looks more like a rugby scrum than a NFL Gang tackle.

# 259 unisol_us @ 06/24/09 11:00 PM

I don't really think that 9 man gang tackling is a need at all

Dude where did he say 9 man gang tackles???? I read fixing the tackling system 2 yrs in the making! Gang tackling is a bi product of the new tackling system so that must mean there is a bunch of under the hood stuff that went on to improve animations in general.

You should really talk about facts and not your twisted idea of the facts.

# 260 SoxFan01605 @ 06/24/09 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NFLHITMAN


	I understand your thoughts and opinion but how many threads on OS over the years has been about Running Animations? Compare that to anything else on this forum or any other forum for that matter when it comes to game development and I bet there is a 5-1 ratio with running animations being the 5. This is obviously is a huge issue with gamers that play any game and especially when we all play Madden. Like I said " I have Madden 10 already paid for because I see the improvements and like them" I just wish as many others that the Running Animations are the #1 priority over every thing else in the game. " You would not put new rims, tint, paint, neon light and more on a car when the Engine itself does not work " Fix the engine 1st than make it pretty!

Well, that's subjective (which is my only point...because we basically agree on the other stuff

). There have been numerous threads on AI, pursuit angles, OL/DL interaction, WR/DB jostling, QB play, Defensive play recognition, etc. ALL of these things have been addressed to a degree, and all of them require proper animation to represent them effectively. That, IMO, makes them a priority.

The point being that only so much can get fixed and you have to have a balance. You can fix all the animations you want. If the game is boring and the players act like idiots on the field, it doesn't matter. In reality, animations of any kind are secondary in that respect.

Your analogy is a bit flawed to. The "engine" in this case would be the gameplay and logic...neither of which are animation related. Animations are only a visual representation of that logic, so animation would fall closer to the "rims, paintjob, etc'" category (we can call it more of a performance booster like turbo, if you wish...lol

).

Truthfully, Madden is a functional, albeit, unimpressive "vehicle". So making it look prettier while slowly upgrading it's performance as much as possible in a given period falls well in-line with a common sense approach to upgrading your "car."

Also, to stray from the analogies for a bit...lol...it's important to remember that they have to balance the in-depth fixes with more generalized stuff the main base can follow. It's an unfortunate balance (for us anyway), but necessary nonetheless.

None of that is to say I don't understand your frustration...I share it. I don't even know if I'm purchasing it this year. I'm I too share some of the same concerns as plenty of people here. I'm hopeful, but we'll see.

At this point though, I think it's important to remember just how much "engine" got work compared to how much needed it. On the surface (since it's impossible to say for sure without playing) it appears to be a fair percentage. That's my only point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NFLHITMAN


	I don't really think that 9 man gang tackling is a need at all

In and of itself, no. It's inclusion is necessary to the realistic representation of the newly implemented logic though, which by association makes it important.

As I said above. Animation is a visual representation of the logic at play. It would be awfully shortsighted to not include animations for the logic you spent so much time implementing.

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