Madden 12 News Post

Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

12:19 AM - June 17, 2011 by illwill10

According to Pastapadre and Kotaku, Phil Frazier (Executive Producer for Madden NFL) is the latest to leave EA Sports Tiburon.

Quote:


	"It is currently uncertain where he is headed however two prime possibilities are Row Sham Bow � the new social gaming company started by former Tiburon GM Philip Holt � or the massive social gaming company Zynga which has taken on several former Tiburon employees in the last year."

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Member Comments

# 361 Pared @ 06/20/11 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianFifaFan


	I don't disagree. But I guess that leads me into the classic "chicken or the egg" scenario. Did Ian and Phil come to this site because of all the great ideas and well imformed gamers? If yes, this forum and site will be just fine. And whoever replaces them will continue to seek input. If no, and it was deemed to be too problematic being this close to the people or that this crowd isn't really the target audience to build the game towards, they won't. Still this forum will go on. And I find it hard to believe that it will become a "silly little forum experience." I've always enjoyed the back and forth of the gamers who care about the games far more than the "pearls from on high." It was, by nature, problematic. I guess my fundimetal question is this: Is this forum great because there were a few "somebodys," or a bunch of nobodys? I think the catering to the developers lead to bunch of unwelcome over-moderation to help keep that channel open, as well as a bunch of guys who over-stepped their bounds and took the opportunity to really just take it to a level of familiarity that was innappropriate in downright insulting the developers. All in all, I'd rather just go back to a bunch of "nobodies" that love gaming and have some really great ideas that end up on wishlists that we give to the developers in a way that creates an orderly atmosphere. If they drop in and say "thanks, we got it and we're gonna work on it," cool. All the other day to day stuff is just too high maintenance. The guys who were only here for that aspect of the developer interaction will move on. I actually want the old, pre-Ian era back. IMO, that's why they came here in the first place, the people that made OS forums such a great place to visit. Not the "new and improved OS forums starring live developers!" So bring on the speculation and dreamers, the honest gamers who aren't trying so hard not offend the "special ones." I'm here to talk to gamers and talk about games, not bow in worship at the feet of developers....

And this is the problem with the entire scenario - In what way does being respectful equate with "bowing in worship?"

There are many long term guys here who have been able to deliver their message with the respect of an adult. And on the flip side, there have been many who have not had the same delivery.

OS has changed as the users have changed - you expect more as a gamer and IMHO, Madden has fallen short compared to other sport titles when it comes to delivering what is expected in a sports title in 2010 and on, aside from online franchise. It's not out of the realm of reality to expect that as we open communication with those that work on these games, our users have the ability to not only respectfully get their thoughts and points across but to be able to NOT put their money towards a sub-par product if that's how they feel. Unfortunately they haven't been able to "control themselves" year in and year out, which saddens me. Poor impulse control equates to another year of boring football gaming.

I'm going a bit off the point however, as you are leading me astray!

The main point is if I were a developer on Madden I wouldn't want to "jump in the fray" of OS and this is going to lead to circular theme here that I'm predicting now - lack of true developer involvement with this franchise, users becoming frustrated (even more-so) and then asking OS to somehow become the middle man. So you can touch on unwelcome over-moderation where in hindsight the complaint would be about the lack of it had things played out differently.

I guess we will have to see how things develop. These departures can't be valued until you see what transpires as I know many will be saddened by these departures if the series reverts back to what it was.

# 362 Pared @ 06/20/11 02:01 PM

Let's get back to the thread - this thread shouldn't turn into a discussion on the Madden board in general.

Thanks fellas.

# 363 Only1LT @ 06/20/11 02:11 PM

I don't condone personal attacks. In reality though, ijits are everywhere. OS is not immune to them.

If you spent anytime at all on the inter webs, you know that people behave even more poorly with anonymity than they do in person. In some cases that is saying a lot.

There is no place where a dev can go though and not get some of the aforementioned maroons to harass them in an inappropriate way. The same can be said for non devs as well. When I am on a forum and see the racist/ misogynist/ homophobic/ what ever comments made, it angers me for a split second. Then I remember that I have no control over how others behave, I hit the report button, keep it moving, and let the mods do their job. Nothing else you can do. For every one of them there are a million more to take their place.

I have empathy for the abuse that the devs, or anyone in a similar situation takes, where people attack personally for problems that they have with someone professionally. You can't let that rule your actions though. Not everyone behaves that way.

I'm not saying this to try and convince a dev that they need to come to OS so that I can have their ear. The devs can do what they feel is in their best interest to do. They are grown men and can do what ever they please. For their benefit though, I would just like them to know that if they do decide to deal with the community, ignore the people who deserve to be ignored and keep your head up. People can talk about me personally or my mom or what ever on the internet all they want, and it won't bother me in the least, because they don't know me, or my mom lol, and they just want a reaction more than anything and I'm not going to give it to them.

At the end of the day, you have to realize that they are just dudes on the internet. Nothing more.

# 364 Broncos86 @ 06/20/11 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tazdevil20


	Then you haven't done development before. While I don't think personal attacks are acceptable, I do think that developers need to have thick skin. This is work, they shouldn't be out to make friends with everyone. You need to have thick skin. The best thing to do is to be a grown up and not respond to the childish attacks. Part of the job is reading through the crap to get to the jewels. This is the same in all areas of software development. When you start responding or running away from the feedback that is negative, then you are not cut out for this. Ignore the crap and look at the constructive stuff. It's that simple.

I HAVE done development. And in many cases, the best immediate feedback is focus testing. When one is trying to balance feedback with figuring out how to implement the feature, then actually taking the time to make it happen, little room is left to sift through piles and piles of negative rants just to find a small gem.

This is why many companies hire community managers to deal with this stuff, and then bring suggestions to the developers. Other companies don't even deal with it at all. Rarely have I seen a company allow their developers and executives to interact on a fan forum. Because of this uniqueness, there are some individuals who do not understand and cannot comprehend how to behave in such a scenario. It appears that the time spent yelling at the TV has dehumanized the Madden developers into mere objects at which the gamer directs his/her anger. When the chance arises to actually convey a message to these developers, all this angers explodes. I would equate this to a lack of maturity.

I wouldn't be the least bit shocked if the Madden team has a simple list of constructive contributors on this board, and merely goes to those individual's arenas to see their posts.

# 365 Jistic @ 06/20/11 03:17 PM

Maybe it's just cuz I'm old but man I think some people are WAYYYYY too sensitive. Especially on a message board.

# 366 roadman @ 06/20/11 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquorLogic


	Actually, boring football gaming year after year is what causes poor impulse control. And please don't respond with " you shouldn't have bought it," or " there's always the option to rent first." There are many people who elect not to purchase Madden, but are still angry because they don't have suitable alternative, and when I say a suitable alternative, I mean another NFL football game. Yeah it's just a hobby, but most people will be angry, even if they find another hobby, if that original hobby is taken away from them. I understand that the developers didn't ink the exclusive deal, but when things are half-a**ed, missing, or broken, and people hear, " didn't have the time," or "wait for the patch" or " next year " (especially when next year comes and EA still doesn't deliver) the perception is that they're resting on their laurels and taking advantage of the exclusive license.

I understand what you are saying, but Ian has already mentioned a few times in here that's it not because of the lack of innovation, but it's the technology. So, it's not the wait till next year stuff, etc.......it's the technology, not the people.

Now, AJ has come in and said that Ian and Phil have came in and laid the groundwork for easier transitions for tech upgrades with the tools they added.

To me, conversing with a mod, developer, follower poster, etc..... starts with, treating the person like you would in real life. If you are upset with your wife or gf, do you tell her she's trash, she fails at things, etc..... or do you approach it diplomatically and with constructive criticism? And before anyone says, wrong example, it could be any relationship outside this forum.

If I was EA, I'd have an 20 yr old intern who is internet savvy and gather the suggestions and email inside to the developers. Wade through the junk, to get to the jewels. All the Intern needs to say is thanks, messages delivered.

Good luck to Phil.

# 367 Pared @ 06/20/11 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquorLogic


	Actually, boring football gaming year after year is what causes poor impulse control.

I know you don't genuinely believe that and are reaching. This is an incredible stretch in justifying a leisurely habit that you can control.

And if you really do believe that, then I sincerely have nothing else to add.

# 368 CubFan23 @ 06/20/11 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings


	Do they ban people on this forum for stupidity?

Please, Madden has been heading in the wrong direction for years, good to get some new people with fresh idea's

# 369 roadman @ 06/20/11 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CubFan23


	Please, Madden has been heading in the wrong direction for years, good to get some new people with fresh idea's

New people = NCAA people. Roy Harvey from NCAA has taken over Phil's seat.

Fresh ideas, we'll see.

# 370 BrianFifaFan @ 06/20/11 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pared


	And this is the problem with the entire scenario - In what way does being respectful equate with "bowing in worship?"

I was simply refering to the inherent "kid's glove" nature of how it had to be when the developer interaction was in full swing. If it's all that, I'd rather just go back to normal. You've been a part of it, too, having to deal with all the crap. For myself, it's in the "sounded good in theory" category. We had a cycle and a half before it went totally to Hades. I totally agree that the developers are not at fault, it was the nut-jobs and even some well-meaning folks that might have went overboard with familiarlity.

I didn't mean to infer that the developers acted like Divas. I was appreciative of all their efforts, especially Ian. Dude spent half the night on here when he was making Madden '10. I think is just a bit naive on all of our parts to think that it would remain the ideal. It is a reality that the internet makes a lot of "toughs." And even the well-meaning took it as we would get "our" game made. Ian had a game to make that would sell to the largest audience. That's when '11 took a turn for the worse in the eyes of a whole lot of us "purists." Gameflow? Not what we were looking for. So even we felt that Ian had strung us along, while selling us out for the "casual" crowd.

It's just became too much, IMO. It made the board a virtual police state. Shall I say what I think and possibly face the "BanHammer?" I agree the moderation was needed, but was it worth the cost to the forum, in general? It's kind of a moot point now. It's all about speculating about the future. My point was that if we have to have the board cluttered to the point of being unreadable and have to walk on eggshells to not offend a developer that might show up post Ian and Phil, it's just not worth it, IMO. They can browse the wishlists and talk to Steve or Chase. I'll still want to come here, probably even more without all the headaches. The starstruck and the geniuses who've never built a game but are sure they can build it better will all go elsewhere without the "celeb" factor. It's fine with me. I've "known" a lot of you guys on this board for far longer than any developer has been visiting OS. I'll be fine and have fun without any developer interaction....

P.S. I actually am going to buy '12, quirks and all. I'm a presentation geek and they've nailed that, IMO. Maybe I should've kept my Madden board moderators gig. I might have gotten it for free!

# 371 Broncos86 @ 06/20/11 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CubFan23


	Please, Madden has been heading in the wrong direction for years, good to get some new people with fresh idea's

See, I don't understand this point of view. How is Madden 12 not benefiting from fresh ideas? Starting with Madden 10, the franchise was moving in a proper direction. I would love to hear what, specifically, you didn't like with Madden 10 and 11, and the promises of 12.

# 372 Pared @ 06/20/11 04:54 PM

I'm not sure what's your deal Brian, but all these insinuations you're making are completely full of it. Smiley winky face or not, you're touching upon things that are not only out of the scope of this thread but completely off-base. I'm not sure what is going on in that head of yours.

Regardless of what you're trying to accomplish and for whatever reason that may be, I think the solid discussion you "long" for here has never left. My point is simply it is always a benefit to us, the gamer when we are apart of it. How many things can you say that about in today's economy? Are you talking directly to the person that designs your car as a consumer? Telling the head engineers at Apple and MS what you want in your next computing system?

Don't twist what we're discussing here - the possible loss of developer interaction that benefits the community. Nothing more, nothing less.

# 373 btemp @ 06/20/11 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadman


	I understand what you are saying, but Ian has already mentioned a few times in here that's it not because of the lack of innovation, but it's the technology. So, it's not the wait till next year stuff, etc.......it's the technology, not the people. Now, AJ has come in and said that Ian and Phil have came in and laid the groundwork for easier transitions for tech upgrades with the tools they added. To me, conversing with a mod, developer, follower poster, etc..... starts with, treating the person like you would in real life. If you are upset with your wife or gf, do you tell her she's trash, she fails at things, etc..... or do you approach it diplomatically and with constructive criticism? And before anyone says, wrong example, it could be any relationship outside this forum. If I was EA, I'd have an 20 yr old intern who is internet savvy and gather the suggestions and email inside to the developers. Wade through the junk, to get to the jewels. All the Intern needs to say is thanks, messages delivered. Good luck to Phil.

I can't believe Mr. Cummings would blame a lack of innovation on technology, or that anyone would buy that. Now, if its in response to a couple very specific developments, such as changing how tackling occurs or such, then it makes sense. But as an excuse for the state of Madden - please! That is extreme naivete. Wasting time on things like virtual trainer or backtrack, or creating features broken like franchise scouting is not a technology issue. What's he going to say "we did a poor job, our bad"?

As for treating people online as you would in real life - that's a nice sentiment but it never will happen. As has been stated by many others if you're on the net you'd better have thick skin. I can sit here and call you a ****, or racist slurs, or any number of things and if you take that personally you're just as much a fool as I. I expect that the developers have the ability to ignore the trolls and take advantage of all the productive posts.

# 374 BrianFifaFan @ 06/20/11 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadman


	I understand what you are saying, but Ian has already mentioned a few times in here that's it not because of the lack of innovation, but it's the technology. So, it's not the wait till next year stuff, etc.......it's the technology, not the people. Now, AJ has come in and said that Ian and Phil have came in and laid the groundwork for easier transitions for tech upgrades with the tools they added. To me, conversing with a mod, developer, follower poster, etc..... starts with, treating the person like you would in real life. If you are upset with your wife or gf, do you tell her she's trash, she fails at things, etc..... or do you approach it diplomatically and with constructive criticism? And before anyone says, wrong example, it could be any relationship outside this forum. If I was EA, I'd have an 20 yr old intern who is internet savvy and gather the suggestions and email inside to the developers. Wade through the junk, to get to the jewels. All the Intern needs to say is thanks, messages delivered. Good luck to Phil.

I totally agree with you. You've got to have some space between the public and the developers in regards to the ideas and feedback. It can become a full time job in itself. And how does the saying go? "You can't please everybody." Funny thing is after I got sacked (Millenium is my cat, thank you for firing me!) as a mod here my bud Wepeeler (Sweetpatch) got me hooked up at EA boards for Madden. I did a conference call with Dewiel (who was moving form Mansfield ? at the time) and had all the rules spelled out on how they run their boards. Without going into specifics we were told to let the sparks fly. Let guys say how they really feel. We were more about creating conversation and generating feedback.

Needless to say, that was a totally different approach to what I was used to here. Of course Phil wasn't nearly the interactor on that board as Ian was on here. He showed up on occasion and said "hi" answered a few questions. That was about it. I can't remember if Ian was on there much, he was mostly on here, and that meant I was, too! I'll grant this. On this board, Ian went all out. Was it a good idea? It helped the game but, in the end, the inevitable happened. He got too close and people took advantage. He couldn't please everyone and they turned on him. Some never even gave him a chance. They just used him as a punching bag for all the anger they felt about EA. I'm glad that someone like AJ got a job out of all of this. That dude is deserving. So, I guess, if that's the legacy of all of this past 2 1/2 years, it was worth it. A real footballer and Madden fan got a job to help carry this game forward!

(not a knock on the others....)

So long to both Ian and Phil! I actually was a fan of both of you. You'll both do fine....

# 375 BrianFifaFan @ 06/20/11 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pared


	I'm not sure what's your deal Brian, but all these insinuations you're making are completely full of it. Smiley winky face or not, you're touching upon things that are not only out of the scope of this thread but completely off-base. I'm not sure what is going on in that head of yours. Regardless of what you're trying to accomplish and for whatever reason that may be, I think the solid discussion you "long" for here has never left. My point is simply it is always a benefit to us, the gamer when we are apart of it. How many things can you say that about in today's economy? Are you talking directly to the person that designs your car as a consumer? Telling the head engineers at Apple and MS what you want in your next computing system? Don't twist what we're discussing here - the possible loss of developer interaction that benefits the community. Nothing more, nothing less.

I totally agree, Pared. I think we just have two different approaches. I'm just saying stay at a comfortable distances, having the benefit of hindsight. Are you saying that it could have panned out differently if we the members or the modding crew would have done something better? I'm just saying that it was inevitable, based on the realities of how message boards and the internet in general work. I'm just as sad as you, just not looking forward to a repeat performance with an inevitable end.

BTW, this is all about responding to your point about the loss of interaction. I might be naive, but feel this board offers enough value for developers and has proven itself over the course of time that this will be nary a bump, they'll mine this site for all the feedback they can. It'll just be a different scenario now, possibly. I don't know. Hopefully you don't think I have any dislike for anyone I'm referring to. I've never tried to infer any fault on anybody's part or called anyone names. I just see (and honestly, am hoping for) a change a comin'. Just like Ian and now Phil have moved on to a different future, this board will have a new, and hopefully better, future.

Now to the point of us helping in the process, I feel that is really overstated. Like you yourself have said, '11 was a disappointing effort in the eyes of many who really loved '10. (which I still own) So did we really have that much sway? I think we had as much of a role in the process as business realities allowed. It is one of my joys in my gaming life to have been a part of inputting on '10, the "game for fans by the fans" (or whatever that marketing slogan was....) I think that we'll still have a say, regardless of who ends up in charge.... Just me sayin'....

P.S. the smiley face was about the free game. I did get Fifa 09 via FedEx the day it released in N.A.

for free...... Man I miss Marcus!

P.S.S. I didn't mean anything disrespectful with the "bowing at the feet" thing. I just was saying that I feel that if that becomes the main focus of what is valuable to the board, it is really kind of defeats the purpose of having said board. I wholly feel that respect should reign supreme, developer or member or guest. But none are more important, IMO. And I don't feel that was the case before. I just don't want that to happen to possibly get another developer to visit. This place was an awesome place before any developer ever showed up. Hopefully that clarifies my statement. Sorry about the poor choice of words....

# 376 Pared @ 06/20/11 06:45 PM

So it's the latter. I figured as much.

Anyway, Brian, your comments seem like you used this thread as avenue to discuss things that don't directly involve Phil's departure. Your exposure as a community advocate for EA and receiving a free game has nothing really do with you being a previous mod or any other tangent you decided to touch upon. Please keep the focus of the topic.

OS is, was and will still be an "awesome" place to come visit b/c of the community. I just hope the lack of dev. interaction doesn't hold back Madden any longer. I can name a number of games that have improved because of it, INCLUDING Madden as of late. Developers willing to interact with their fan base is at a premium in this "leisure activity" and we were on a path were it wasn't. It's just a step back, that's all.

# 377 Broncos86 @ 06/20/11 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pared


	I can name a number of games that have improved because of it, INCLUDING Madden as of late. Developers willing to interact with their fan base is at a premium in this "leisure activity" and we were on a path were it wasn't. It's just a step back, that's all.

Big time. I think gamers here should realize that the type of gamers here are in the minority (IMO). The hardcore sim gamer, etc is not the majority. Most gamers who buy Madden never really follow the game or the changes. They read about it in a magazine, or if IGN does a cover on it. But that's it. Then they buy it and see what's new. For years, this was me. I didn't really get into forums for Madden until Madden 07 or so, on a forum that eventually shut down and led me here (I think the forum mod was named Fred Smooth?). Anyways, the point is that if EA wanted to completely ignore this forum completely, I seriously doubt it'd even dent the sales.

Ian, Phil, and Co. didn't have to come here and debate the camera angle of field goals, or talk about the running animations of players. But they did so anyways. I really think gamers here need to understand this. The Madden team openly embraced communities like this, and part of that community returned volley by spitting in their faces.

# 378 BrianFifaFan @ 06/20/11 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pared


	So it's the latter. I figured as much. Anyway, Brian, your comments seem (it only seems that way. ) like you used this thread as avenue to discuss things that don't directly involve Phil's departure. Your exposure as a community advocate for EA and receiving a free game has nothing really do with you being a previous mod or any other tangent you decided to touch upon. Please keep the focus of the topic. OS is, was and will still be an "awesome" place to come visit b/c of the community. I just hope the lack of dev. interaction doesn't hold back Madden any longer. I can name a number of games that have improved because of it, INCLUDING Madden as of late. Developers willing to interact with their fan base is at a premium in this "leisure activity" and we were on a path were it wasn't. It's just a step back, that's all.

Agreed. And I wasn't trying to derail the thread or "toot my horn." Sorry for the tangents. I was just expressing how, over the course of time, I have come to feel that maybe after the way this all played out, it wasn't such a great idea to have direct community interaction. So I guess we disagree, and that's fine with me. If you feel I derailed the thread, I'm sorry. I have no agenda. Just a point of view based on experience. In the most direct, and least derailing manner possible, I think that direct interaction is a "bad idear....."

(gotta do the Midwestern country drawl to get the full effect. Think vintage Hee Haw...)

BTW, I did my speculating about Phil and Ian and the whole EA Canada takeover earlier in the thread. I now defer to you, whom I actually love chatting with. I'm done. Signed, the eternally long-winded one.... Brian

# 379 Pared @ 06/20/11 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tazdevil20


	I have never seen anyone ask for some things that get implemented.... Other companies make amazing sports games with little or no customer interaction.

In 2011, this is certainly not the case. Just because YOU personally do not see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Hell, it wasn't the case in 2010, 2009, 2008, etc. I think my point is painfully obvious.

It's actually the norm. Many here on the boards would be able to give you specific examples but those that can't obviously outnumber them. You should spend some more time in other forums and you'd see it first hand, let alone what happens that you will never know about.

# 380 bkrich83 @ 06/20/11 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquorLogic


	Maybe those people "returned the volley" by spitting in the devs faces (so to speak) because that's what they felt was done to them, and they were just returning the volley. I really don't see how the developers could have expected anything else. Madden 10, after years of frustrating titles, didn't live up to expectations, and then Madden 11 also was a lackluster effort. That's going to upset people and the devs had to have known that. They also needed to be prepared for insults because everyone on video game forum isn't going to be an adult, so you can't expect everyone to act like an adult. The mods will take care of those posters.

So you're justifying and advocating the venom and vitriol aimed at the devs by people? People are justified in personal attacks on devs because they don't like the game?

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