12:13 AM - April 30, 2012 by jpdavis82Madden NFL 13 News Post
12:13 AM - April 30, 2012 by jpdavis82Madden NFL 13 Videos
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A direct representation of games on Sunday that is what you want yet you arent playing the game in a manner thats intended. Teams do prepare and they gameplan.
This is my point with all the posts above. A bit harsh in what im saying, ya totally. but in your mind you are quintessential representation of what the NFL experience is and should be playing Madden. Yet you dont go the FULL distance. You play games online which to me means you dont play 15 min qtrs and you dont play with acc clock off. Again another instance of you not representing what the NFL is like.
Theres no way any of us can replicate to the point that is going to be exactly what you see on Sundays - we can come close and we are ALL going to be off in specific scenarios in regards to whats real and whats not real. but dont judge someone for how they play the game and explain that they are playing it wrong.
How many offensive plays a game should I be calling to emulate a NFL game?
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# 184
baller7345 @ 05/04/12 08:50 PM
One point of contention. Sgibs you've said that Madden is doing a fairly good job of replicating the game in your eyes. While I can agree that it does a decent job of replicating many of the passing concepts you'd see from an NFL game. In fact that is one aspect that I really think they did a great job with, I can run Double Dino Post , Double China, Smash, Curl Flats, Strong Flood, Drive, Shallow Cross, Mesh, Z-Spot, Slot Outs, Comebacks, Corner Strike, Flanker Dig, etc. and have success with them against the defenses they are designed to beat in real life and that is where I get my satisfaction out of Madden from (trying new real world concepts).
However saying it does a good job of expressing the game as a whole is disregarding several key factors. Madden has never managed to programmed well enough in terms of simulating the game to allow higher levels players to play 15 minute quarters and not turn it into some crazy scoring game. To put it simply offense rules while the defense is the reason most of the exploits are in place. The tourney guys play with 4 minutes quarters (never will understand that) and can still manage to put up over 40 points in some games. The reason is because the game is not programmed well enough to handle to sort of plays you are throwing at it so the offense is always at the advantage.
You have to work to free rushers up to generate any type of pass rush which while yes blitzes ran in the NFL generally are designed to free people up they aren't looking to do it every play. They are able to trust their 4 man rush to get pressure. Also a defense like Cover 2/Tampa 2 is a staple of several teams however sticking to a tampa 2 for an entire 60 minute game is going to result in you giving up close to 100-150 points unless you heavily modify it on the fly till you are occasionally not even running a tampa 2 anymore.
Give your typical Madden player 60 plays a game and they'll put up at least 40 points a game where as only the best offenses in the league can barely approach 35 points a game. Put a good offensive player in control of a team with the typical 60 plays a game and you can see how the poor representation of the defensive side of the ball coupled with the offense generally having the advantage makes playing the game however you want no more sim than the fact the Big FN Deal not scheming at all.
However saying it does a good job of expressing the game as a whole is disregarding several key factors. Madden has never managed to programmed well enough in terms of simulating the game to allow higher levels players to play 15 minute quarters and not turn it into some crazy scoring game. To put it simply offense rules while the defense is the reason most of the exploits are in place. The tourney guys play with 4 minutes quarters (never will understand that) and can still manage to put up over 40 points in some games. The reason is because the game is not programmed well enough to handle to sort of plays you are throwing at it so the offense is always at the advantage.
You have to work to free rushers up to generate any type of pass rush which while yes blitzes ran in the NFL generally are designed to free people up they aren't looking to do it every play. They are able to trust their 4 man rush to get pressure. Also a defense like Cover 2/Tampa 2 is a staple of several teams however sticking to a tampa 2 for an entire 60 minute game is going to result in you giving up close to 100-150 points unless you heavily modify it on the fly till you are occasionally not even running a tampa 2 anymore.
Give your typical Madden player 60 plays a game and they'll put up at least 40 points a game where as only the best offenses in the league can barely approach 35 points a game. Put a good offensive player in control of a team with the typical 60 plays a game and you can see how the poor representation of the defensive side of the ball coupled with the offense generally having the advantage makes playing the game however you want no more sim than the fact the Big FN Deal not scheming at all.
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*"SIM" Madden Players = Boxers
*Competitive Madden Players = MMA Fighters
I wish there was a way to filter out the following types of individuals when it comes to talking about Madden 11 here:
*People that don't play the game at all.
*People that blindly hate EA.
*2K fanboys (there is a 2K football forum here ... go THAAAAT way! #BigPun)
*People that play this game for a month or less every year.
*Overly sore losers.
I think if we could properly qualify everyone's statements based on what perspective their expressing themselves from, these conversations would be much more constructive.
For the record; I detest labels when it comes to how people play Madden. We should all enjoy this game for what it is with basic rules that allow us to compete as hard as we want to within the rules of football itself.
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I attribute that to the fact at how good we actually all are. I will very rarely get sacked in Madden bc the focal point of my offense is getting the ball out quickly. I havent actually sat with a stop watch in practice to see what the consistent pass rush time is. but anything around 4 seconds should be about right. I would imagine we would see this if we tested it out.
That fact that we all play it so much and perfect the game so well is why we notice a lot of the nuisances and issues with the game. That comes with anything though - be around something long enough and it will lose its shiny gloss it once had
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I swear actual football coaches would laugh at some of the "sim for sim's sake" posts seen here. This is football, not synchronized swimming!
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"Just cut up coaches film of 2006 Manning-Indy Colts. They literally had like 15 plays. Expect 40 mins of vid/breakdown on site soon"
"Video will be organized by pass/run play. They had games where Colts used like 4 pass plays and 2 runs entire game. It's crazy (but great)"
thought that was interesting to see. this is the kind of stuff im talking about when I think people take the NFL realism card to far. How many of us even knew this? I for sure didnt. Hell that sounds similar to the amount of plays I call all game. I have about 15 plays that I call on a very regular basis.
"Yeah I only have two runs on here, Pin-and-pull OZ and inside zone. Pass concepts are levels, deep cross off PA, 3 verticals"
"They have a few route conversions built in (will diagram) but super simplistic. Obviously QB putting them in right play helps."
"Just further evidence that most NFL teams really overdo it though."
"If a college QB came out of the Colts system I just got done cutting up, would say played in "predetermined read" "simplistic" O."
"Yep. About 90% of success of Colts very basic stuff, 10% total WOW execution RT@ andrewdstanley football is all about execution"
"Yes, but you agree that most teams overdo it with playbooks. Getting into right play and executing it, not have 1,000 looks"
"Also, watch my work next couple of months. With no-huddle in CFB/NFL, not a/b play-calling anymore, packaged/combo plays now"
"I'd say that play-design is more important than having a lot of plays. No geniuses in football; everything is old."
What are your thoughts on this everyone?
"They have a few route conversions built in (will diagram) but super simplistic. Obviously QB putting them in right play helps."
"Just further evidence that most NFL teams really overdo it though."
"If a college QB came out of the Colts system I just got done cutting up, would say played in "predetermined read" "simplistic" O."
"Yep. About 90% of success of Colts very basic stuff, 10% total WOW execution RT
"Yes, but you agree that most teams overdo it with playbooks. Getting into right play and executing it, not have 1,000 looks"
"Also, watch my work next couple of months. With no-huddle in CFB/NFL, not a/b play-calling anymore, packaged/combo plays now"
"I'd say that play-design is more important than having a lot of plays. No geniuses in football; everything is old."
What are your thoughts on this everyone?
# 190
WFColonel56 @ 05/04/12 09:12 PM
gibs hit the nail right on the head the first week the game is out a game of 2000 ravens vs 2000 ravens even with tourney guys.
After the dust settles and players get a handle on the game. How does this coverage work, which alignments benefit me, who are the best players for me to put on the field, how do I throw this route, etc is when the points go up....
and thats even more of a testament to the work put in by players... If one is slacking it could be a 70-17 game (5 min q's)
If both players put in the necessary work game scores can be all over the place...but the score will be close.
Could be 35-42 or 10-17
in the virgin gaming tournament a player named Zan won 13-10
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and idk where the 4 min quarters came from in the tourney community but this is just my guess that that is long enough to get a game where you have time to adjust to an opponent and play a fulfilling game yet short enough to not be there all day playing 1 game.
remember tourneys can have 5,6,7,8,10 rounds and the difference between 4 min Q's and 5 mins may seem stupid but it adds up.
After the dust settles and players get a handle on the game. How does this coverage work, which alignments benefit me, who are the best players for me to put on the field, how do I throw this route, etc is when the points go up....
and thats even more of a testament to the work put in by players... If one is slacking it could be a 70-17 game (5 min q's)
If both players put in the necessary work game scores can be all over the place...but the score will be close.
Could be 35-42 or 10-17
in the virgin gaming tournament a player named Zan won 13-10
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and idk where the 4 min quarters came from in the tourney community but this is just my guess that that is long enough to get a game where you have time to adjust to an opponent and play a fulfilling game yet short enough to not be there all day playing 1 game.
remember tourneys can have 5,6,7,8,10 rounds and the difference between 4 min Q's and 5 mins may seem stupid but it adds up.
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The fact of the matter is that I DO NOT CARE ABOUT PACKAGES like the ones you keep bringing up. The issue arises when players like Finley are very hard to defend like he is when he is at wideout or in the slot and you make him Rocket Catch everything every single time!!!
Delanie walker was Fb for the 9ers and so have several other TE's or Linemen for the matter. I dont care if Finley is the best TE in the world but for the mere fact the same undefendable animation is triggered every single time so that he cant be defended is the issue. I dont need to post a video from youtube or anything like that for you guys to know what im talking about.
None of you can go out there on the field and Rocket catch every single pass in a no huddle situation running streaks the entire time. Fatigue should truly kick in to counter the repetitiveness of such a thing and auto sub or a severe injury should occur for careless gameplay.
If my WR has a step or 2 on a defender while running a streak route, whats the point in having an extra boost when you switch to manual control him when he was already clearly at full sprint when you noticed he was open?
I wish WF that you quit playing devils advocate for a second and get real, you know whats up and its been like this for years. My first Madden Challenge EA allowed the use of the Juke Glitch that year, I was quickly turned off from that with a WTF look on many faces in the event when we all that was unacceptable.
Its the gimmicks your fellow TGL members come to use when they fail to learn how to adequately play defense, so they shake glitch or find some nano or a way to get in unrealistic pressure on the QB when you know clearly well the the oline isnt programmed to do what linemen do in real life.
But my focal point is I DONT CARE HOW U PLAY< JUST LEAVE THE PUB LOBBY AND PLAY NOW GAMERS ALONE!!!
If you want to play this way, then create you an unranked lobby to play in, obviously leaderboards and stuff arent that important to you and for damn sure is not gonna run across too many people who are going to attend an event catered to that crazy style of gameplay.
Like I said man, I have really no problems playing against you guys, I can hold my own playing football. Its when these things rear there heads and start working when they shouldnt. I use purple Buzz zones to try and contain those post corner routes with the TE or the slot, I presses the slot wr to slow him down long enough so that my safety or whoever can have a better chance at swatting the pass down. But as I am doing all this systematically game after game, it always seems to work or when it doesnt my opponent just seems so persistent and keeps doing it until it works. When it does, there is no stopping it really after that.
But if this style is the case and most of you guys run the same stuff, then how fun is it playing someone who is not gonna run the ball unless its out of close I or some weird formation that the blocking scheme is so screwed up that it helps the person running it more than it should.
But I guess playing circus ball out of an NFL SIMULATION GAME is where its at. I just dont understand it really, EA has that locked down with BLITZ, MADDEN ARCADE, and MADDEN.
# 192
baller7345 @ 05/04/12 09:17 PM
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It shouldn't matter how skilled one is at the game, it should still be able to successfully represent the game it is trying to simulate. This is where I choose to go with the sim argument. Playing it freestyle loses any chance of keeping the statistics being put up realistic because the offense is at such an advantage with the current setup. When you have at your disposal unbumpable routes, motion hike/ghost routes, a very glitchy route such as the post corner, slot streaks, face throws, man switches, etc. as what you are willing to work with on the offense side you run into problems trying to say that the game does a good job of simulating football by itself.
While some sim leagues and even sim players take their definition of sim to the point where we aren't playing 21st century football anymore it doesn't change the fact that if we want a realistic experience certain tactics need to either be limited or eliminated (examples would include things like: spy blitz, shake blitz (because everyone hates it), abusing things like the old school rocket catch, etc).
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what do you think about the playcalling of the 2006 colts and some of the things Chris over at smartfootball.com has to say?
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But to answer your question, coaches call more plays than you guys do and thats for sure. But you never see them running the same exact play over and over and over obtaining the same results. That goes to the blocking all the way down to the guy being open in the exact same spot and space on the field regardless who is covering him.
Come with something better, you not helping the case here at all trying to be funny and stuff. But please let us know which coaches in the NFL use your strategy of madden to coach their games. Was it the Colts, Bronco's, Jax Jags? The bronco's did it for a minute, every caught on and the most elite teams or coaches shut them down.
Enlighten me, or dont come with none of your snarky remarks!
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thats your right as a player to limit what your doing - but to judge someone else and say there playstyle is in correct just really doesnt make sense to me (not you but that general sim standpoind)
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Colts in 2006 ran 15 plays and in a few games ran 4 passing plays and 2 runnings plays all game.
# 197
baller7345 @ 05/04/12 09:26 PM
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Watch any Green Bay game, its slot outs, 4 verts, Smash, Drive, Flanker Dig, WR Screen, Curl Flats, HB Screen, comebacks, corner strike,back shoulder fades, and their power running and PA stuff. Now when they hit the redzone they dip into their Dino Double Post, Double China, and Spacing concepts (i.e. your typical redzone passing concepts) but you could probably go back and watch every single play ran by them over the year and it would fit into what I listed above. What makes it work is execution, and being able to throw it at the opponent out of multiple looks.
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its almost like your saying that to play the game right i need to just change my formation (but im good running the same concepts) and im representing football. Why would that be accepted?
# 199
WFColonel56 @ 05/04/12 09:37 PM
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# 200
baller7345 @ 05/04/12 09:41 PM
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It becomes unsim when you either don't change looks or only have maybe 2 looks or you come out in say strong close to tell if the cover is man or zone and audible instantly from there into something else. It also strays from sim when there is some tactic that is literally used by everyone because it is so hard to stop.
Of course your talking to the guy who is perfectly fine with a no huddle offense as long as it doesn't involve running a hurry up the entire game.
Sim isn't limited to 3 yards and a cloud of dust. Avoid throwing DT A gap pressure at me, and use real world concepts to play offense and you are playing sim enough for me to say you are sim. Now I'm not overly fond of other defensive tactics like 3 man edge pressure but that is due to how it only works that way because its a DE.
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